197 Menstruality and The Sacred Inner Ecology with Alexandra Pope and Sjanie Hugo Wurlitzer

Forget everything you think you know about periods. This conversation blows the lid off the cultural conditioning, shame, and linear thinking we’ve been fed, and replaces it with a radical new paradigm: menstruality as a source of power, creativity, leadership, and spiritual awakening.

In this episode, Sally sits down with Alexandra Pope & Sjanie Hugo Wurlitzer, the visionary co-founders of Red School and co-authors of Wild Power and Wise Power. With over 60 years of combined experience, they’re not just talking about women’s health; they’re pioneering a whole new language and leadership model rooted in the menstrual cycle.

🔍 What We Explore

• The Calling Within – Alexandra shares how deep menstrual pain cracked her open to a deeper intelligence, triggering a spiritual awakening that’s governed her life’s work. Menopause, she says, didn’t slow her; it unleashed her.
• Creativity Flowing Through the Cycle – Sjanie describes how regaining her cycle post-contraception reconnected her to intuition, emotional truths, and her life’s purpose. The menstrual cycle became a living conduit for creativity and confidence.
• Four Inner Seasons = Four Powers – How menstruation (inner winter), pre-ovulation (spring), ovulation (summer), and pre-menstruum (autumn) mirror nature, and how honoring these phases restores your inner ecology and breaks the burnout cycle of “more is better.”
• Death, Rebirth & the Menopause Initiation – The transition into menopause is a profound psychological death. Surrendering to it allows a rebirth into your most powerful, purpose-filled chapter.
• From Inner to Outer Evolution – When you reclaim your cyclical nature, you deepen empathy, reorient your relationship with nature, and become a catalyst for collective change. It’s not just personal, it’s planetary.

🎯 Why This Conversation Is a Must-Listen

If you’ve ever felt pressure to hide, suppress, or push through your cycle, this episode flips that paradigm. Alexandra and Sjanie are not simply reframing menstruation; they’re inviting you into a radical new way of living, leading, and creating, one that is cyclical, embodied, and in harmony with nature.

This is not about coping.
This is about activating the wild, wise power that’s always been inside you.

🔗 Want to Go Deeper?

If this conversation lights something in you and you’re ready to step into more understanding, embodiment, and power around menopause and the cycle, I invite you to explore Menopause: The Great Awakener by Red School. Use this link (affiliate) to learn more or sign up:
👉 Menopause: The Great Awakener

📲 Connect with Alexandra and Sjanie:  

Website: www.redschool.net

Instagram: www.instagram.com/red.school/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/redschoolonline

Sally's Links:

[Free Guide] Healing The Trauma Underlying Your Menopause Symptom Severity: https://www.sallygarozzo.com/healingtraumatheguide

[On-Demand Masterclass] How To Heal The Trauma Underlying Your Menopause Symptom Severity [£17]: https://www.sallygarozzo.com/healingtrauma

[On-Deman

Transcript

Sally (00:01.294)
So my guests today really need no introduction. They are Alexandra Pope and Shani Hugo-Werlitzer. They are the co-founders of Red School and co-authors of the iconic and hugely celebrated books, Wild Power and Wise Power. They are both trailblazers in the new emerging field of menstruality, creating a new lexicon and approach to women's health and wellbeing.

to creativity and leadership and spiritual life based on the power of the menstrual cycle and the initiatory journey from menarche to menopause. Bringing a collective 60 years of experience, today they teach worldwide on the psycho-spiritual process of maturation that unfolds from menarche to menopause and beyond.

and they are truly committed to training the menstruality leaders of the future. So welcome to you both. I am so excited to talk to you. A warm welcome. How are you both?

Alexandra Pope (01:10.692)
I'm feeling incredibly uplifted, not that I wasn't feeling uplifted before, but just connecting with you Sally is sort of igniting my sort of, well my humour actually, so be warned.

Sjanie (01:23.487)
You

Sally (01:25.102)
I love that. That will be my pixie energy coming through.

Sjanie (01:29.631)
you

Alexandra Pope (01:29.932)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I could feel, you know, could feel a playful spirit in the airwaves right now and you know, let's see how that goes, shall we?

Sally (01:38.924)
Yeah, yeah, let's see how that goes. How are you, Shani?

Sjanie (01:39.039)
I'm feeling actually very joyful as well, like the joy of being able to talk to you about this, which we absolutely love. And I've been busy working all day, doing sort of behind the scenes business work. And so just to get to talk in this way, I'm feeling very up for it.

Sally (02:06.386)
that's so nice. It's nice, isn't it, just to interrupt the day with a little bit of a conversation, an inspiring conversation about that which we love. And I know this is your subject. So it really is an honor for me to sit here in front of you both today, because your work is so incredibly important, so paradigm shifting. And if it wasn't for you and your thought leadership, really, on menstruality, I don't even think this podcast would exist, if I'm honest.

Sjanie (02:08.287)
Yeah.

Sjanie (02:35.551)
Wow.

Sally (02:36.278)
I've been really inspired by your work and you've both created such a really deep and profound body of work. It shows such a high level of connection to your inner genius, your inner creativity. And I'd love to start by asking you both, what inner resources have you both tapped into?

to really enable this sort of high level of creativity to emerge through your body of work. Whoever wants to go first with that can.

Alexandra Pope (03:13.604)
That is such a wonderful question that hasn't been asked of us before. I feel myself sort of expand when you ask that question. Well, what resources me? Well, the work itself, but to flesh that out, Sally, this work has, it's a calling. And, you know, I'm now,

Sally (03:24.334)
Mmm.

Sally (03:29.102)
Yeah.

Alexandra Pope (03:43.397)
well past menopause, I'm in my early 70s. But this work sort of woke up in me. Well, it kind of woke up at my very first spleen, because I had the most wonderful experience around that. But in my 20s, I sort of clued up to fertility awareness, you know, rather than taking hormone or contraception. But it was in my early 30s that I was catapulted into a kind of

deep dive through menstrual, outrageous menstrual pain, which I had not had before that would come back each month. And I just had this compelling energy in me that said, listen to your body and follow it. And I went, okay. And you know, the rest is history. Here we are having this conversation. So there was something that woke up, but I, know, it's a long story.

Sally (04:34.861)
Okay.

Alexandra Pope (04:39.31)
detail that sort heart of it is that as I gave space to menstruation and deeply dropped in and listened to it through all the madness of the pain, not taking painkillers as much as possible. Then I, it was, I started to experience a of spiritual awakening because there's these spiritual forces at menstruation. And I just, I was like, yeah, yeah. It's like sounds sort of orgasmic the way I'm talking. And every month when I bled,

there it was again. And then I would, this sort of revelation of the power of menstruation and the power of the menstrual cycle. So it was like a force inside me that was being unleashed over and over again. And then, well, I have to say, know, menopause, menopause can really make you unstoppable. If you know how to rise and meet menopause and

It is an incredible unleashing. So I just feel held by the riverbanks of my calling and it's demanding. We have a huge ambition. I had huge kind of visions really basically when I bled and just a compelling knowing of the madness of this work not being known and the wonderfulness of it being known everywhere. It felt

way bigger than me, you know, I did, you know, I just, but I just followed the next step, the next step. And so I have to say, it's an inside job. It's this force from within. It's my calling. And I, I have stayed true to it. And yeah, that's it.

Sally (06:17.934)
Hmm.

Sally (06:24.078)
Yeah, so the vision itself was the resource that you allowed through you without blocking it. You trust it. guess trust being another resource, trusting your body.

Alexandra Pope (06:37.764)
I did. Yeah, I absolutely had this trust that I think I honestly believe something happened around my very first bleed that I always had a sense of grace, because my life wasn't particularly glamorous or, you know, grace or anything. But I had lots of struggles because I had lots of health struggles, actually. And I always had a feeling of meaning at work.

And that's what I call grace, that there was something meaningful unfolding that sort of kept me in the river of some kind of goodness, Sally, you know, because otherwise it's very easy to fall into meaninglessness. And, you know, especially when you don't have energy to be able to participate in normal life, it can feel very bleak. But somehow there was this deep trust in myself that

there was something meaningful at work that was unfolding. And I listened to that actually. I'm a tiny bit proud of myself actually for listening.

Sally (07:45.103)
Well, yeah, yeah. It's no mean feat though, is it? Especially in the world that we live in. Was there anything in your environment, the way that you were raised, in the parenting that made you listen to yourself more?

Alexandra Pope (07:48.92)
Yeah.

Alexandra Pope (08:00.856)
No, actually, no, except that I had a mother that, well, she never understood any of this and, know, she never gave me a guilt trip for me going off and doing what I did, because I went and lived on the other side of the world. You know, I was, I'm English, but I lived in Australia for 25 years. And I often stop and go, my God, mom, thank you, thank you, thank you.

you gave me freedom. I make me cry now to think about that actually. But yeah, that. And there was something else then that was flirting with me around what helped me to hold to this. Well, I mean, ultimately, I have to say it's menstruation because this would always make me laugh actually. Every month when I bled, I used to feel

Sally (08:30.178)
You know.

Alexandra Pope (08:52.798)
I used to get very high, it's like being on drugs, because it is, it's natural high. And I used to feel the utter rightness of who I was. Now I was someone who carried a lot of shame in me, Sally. I could feel the utter rightness of who I was and this, I could feel meaning, could feel, yeah, and have these visions. And then I'd come out of menstruation into normal life again. And no one, of course, is talking about this, no one. And by the time I get to ovulation, I'm going, whoa, maybe I'm making this up.

And then I'd come around to menstruation and I go, no, no, no, no, it's real. I'm not. my God. And so it was actually just every month being reminded, reminded. And then something, it then lodges inside you and you can't abandon it.

Sally (09:38.638)
Well, so even in the pain you were having that high.

Alexandra Pope (09:44.167)
yeah, initially the pain was all consuming, but I used to go into it naked, as in without drugs and just face it head on. And it was like the veils being ripped from my eyes. And I did an awful lot of cursing and patriarchy, have to say initially Sally, to get through. And that was quite empowering actually. So there was a lot of cussing.

Sally (10:02.882)
Yeah.

Sally (10:11.874)
Love that.

Alexandra Pope (10:14.782)
And I had a very good man at the time, my partner, who would just hold me and just go with me, and rock me, and just let me let rip. It was incredibly liberating.

Sally (10:27.212)
What a story, what a story. Yeah, yeah. I can't say I have done that. I mean, I had incredibly painful periods, but I wasn't brave enough to lean into the pain. I did read your book, Genie, actually about 13 years ago and shared it with some people because I found it just woke me up to the power of the menstrual cycle. And from then I started leaning into

Alexandra Pope (10:28.548)
It's different story.

Sally (10:56.684)
those phases, the spring, summer, winter, and just trying to be with that pain a little bit more. But what you're describing is something that I think takes a lot of courage and bravery and absolute trust in your body that this is meant to be. So yeah, yeah. If I could give you a trophy through the airwaves, would.

Alexandra Pope (11:09.994)
Thank you.

Sjanie (11:15.216)
Okay.

Alexandra Pope (11:18.756)
Bless you, bless you. It's very kind of you. Thank you very much.

Sally (11:23.814)
So Sharni, coming to you, how did you two meet and what inner resources have you had to tap into to kind of connect with your creativity in the way that you have?

Sjanie (11:39.111)
Yeah, like Alexandra, I really, really love that question. I'll come to how we met in a minute. But what you reflected back to Alexandra there, you said, your vision was a resource. And I would say the same was true for me because when I, because I spent about seven years on contraception in my early twenties and I was without a menstrual cycle and

Sally (11:44.11)
Hmm.

Sjanie (12:08.548)
looking back I've named those years, know, the seven lean years because it was a time of, I didn't realize it at the time. It's only afterwards in comparison I was like, wow, I was really locked out of myself and something in me was deeply shut down. I had no menstrual cycle from the contraception and there was a sort of, I was lost.

I was lost. I was doing all kinds of things. I was working as a graphic designer. I studied hypnotherapy, which I know you did. And I was doing all kinds of things, but I didn't have a sense of this is who I am and this is what I'm made for and a sense of being inside the vision of my life. And it was only really when I came off contraception and my cycles returned that I felt this sort of waking up.

Sally (12:41.794)
Yeah.

Sjanie (13:03.026)
happened and initially it happened quite dramatically. was like all the color came rushing back into my life. My feeling life woke up and I felt a lot. My intuition came back online and all my ways of experiencing the world and experiencing myself suddenly became much more fine-tuned and so I was in touch with something in me again.

And that was profoundly connected to my menstrual cycle. And I now understand that the menstrual cycle is the conduit for our creativity. It's sort of an embodiment of the creative cycle, if you like. And so there's been something about getting to know my menstrual cycle and practicing cycle awareness over all these years that has attuned me to

creativity as it's living in me and through me more and more deeply. And much like Alexandra, know, menstruation would give me this really deeply felt sense of like who I am and what I'm made for and a feeling of my value, my worth, that I've got something to contribute. You know, it was both vision, but also a feeling of

worthiness, which is often where I think our creativity gets blocked, is we just think, well, who am I to think I can do X, Y or Z? We just don't go any further. We have the idea, but we're like, I can't do it. Who am I to do it? Menstruation gives you that really strong sense of confidence, belief, a feeling of really your own innate value. So that was very strong for me month after month.

Sally (14:41.56)
Yeah.

Sjanie (14:59.378)
But then also the whole menstrual cycle just has kept me on track because I probably like everyone listening get co-opted by the next shiny thing or what my parents think I should do or what will look impressive in the world or I just get sidetracked and seduced by all the stuff around me, outer things and the menstrual cycle and particularly the pre-menstruum

in autumn comes along and says, wait a minute, is really like, are you on track? Is this does this really matter to you? Is this really who you are and what you're here to do? And I would land up course correcting, making different choices, saying no to certain things. And that ongoing honing refining process has kept me more and more deeply in the river of who I am and what I'm here to do. And I think as I get closer to menopause, because I'm

nearly 49 now, not yet in menopause, but I'm late, the late autumn of my menstruating years. That kind of discipline of holding to just what it is that I'm here to do, to just be myself and not try and do anything else is getting more and more fierce. And when you talk about zone of genius, I think that's what it is for all of us. It's about us letting go of who we're not.

and just really dropping into who we are, the gifts we have, the skills we have, what we love. And that thing really liberates something. It's a freedom, a creative freedom that happens, I think. Yeah.

Sally (16:32.055)
Yeah.

Sally (16:38.518)
Yeah, you become more distilled, don't you? You become more the essence of you. Yeah, and more potent. Yeah. Yeah, wow. I love that. Yeah, it just reminds me of the cycle in a way being your inner compass and this way to help you discern whether you're pointing, which way you're pointing, really. Yeah.

Sjanie (16:41.552)
Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. More potent. Yeah, good one.

Sjanie (16:56.168)
Yeah.

Sjanie (17:02.856)
Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Sally (17:06.54)
Wow, love it, love it. Yeah, we've really started this conversation off with a bang, haven't we? I feel that we're, we're really just, we've just put the meat on the bone straight away.

So in your book, I love, I've got it here, Prime Position, I love how you connect having healthy menstruality to a sense of being connected to our inner ecology. And I'd never heard that before. But I have heard people, I have heard people sort of sprinkle that idea around, but you go into it quite a lot in the book about what menstruality.

actually is and how it links in with our inner ecology. you like to, Alexandra, would you like to explain a little bit about what menstruality is and how it links with this idea of inner ecology?

Alexandra Pope (18:07.234)
Yes, I'll kick it off, but I actually think Shani might be better at fleshing that one out. Yeah, but I'll just feel into it. It's a huge thing, this, you see. There is...

Sally (18:13.175)
Okay.

Alexandra Pope (18:25.07)
whole kind of world or consciousness within us that gets unlocked the moment we start to value our menstrual cycle, moment we step onto the path of paying attention to it. Because the menstrual cycle isn't just a biological phenomena, although it's valuable to pay attention to it just because of that, because it's called the fifth vital sign.

you know, healthy menstrual cycle gives you, the state of your menstrual cycle gives you information about your overall health and wellbeing. But the act of paying attention to your menstrual cycle on physical, emotional, you know, sort of mental level, know, energy levels, the state of your nervous system, as it shifts throughout the menstrual month, does a number of things, but it really opens up

our inner world, our inner life, it puts us inside a consciousness that we call menstruality. It's quite interesting trying to describe this when I'm so inside it. I'm like a fish trying to describe water to you right now because I just mind the permanent land within which I swim. The moment you start to pay attention

Sally (19:50.998)
Right.

Alexandra Pope (19:54.935)
It's like you put yourself together in a whole new way. You put yourself inside yourself in the way you've never done before. And it's a way of understanding yourself that helps you to feel kind of just right with yourself. It's extraordinary. Not paying attention to it, it's a bit like ignoring the elephant in the room.

because it has a huge impact on us at all these different levels because we're not the same throughout, we're not linear like men, we change through the menstrual month. But because we're taught to ignore the menstrual cycle, we're taught to override it, we have to override these changing things and then we judge ourselves for thinking, what's wrong with me? know, last week I was right on my game, I could do, you know, I could multitask and, you know, climb Mount Everest at the same time.

And today, I just want to be quiet and private with myself. And if anyone asks me a question on how to do something, I'm probably going to bite their head off because I'm tired of being bothered and I just want to do what I want to do. And so when you practice what we call menstrual cycle awareness, you start to build this inner world, this inner ecology.

within yourself, of valuing these different states of being, different states of being, these different energies that you move through in the menstrual month, instead of just coping with it and overriding it. So we liken, there are four very distinct phases to the menstrual cycle, and we liken these to inner seasons. And we think of menstruation as the inner winter because,

It's so like winter, we feel drawn into ourselves. We don't want to be out there in the world. We want to just rest and do nothing. It's like the midnight hour, you know? And then the pre-ovulatory phase, we talk about the inner spring and the ovulatory phase, we talk about that as the inner summer and the pre-menstruum, we talk about the inner autumn. And each of these phases has very different kind of energies and powers. And when you start to value

Alexandra Pope (22:13.188)
who you are in these different stages. What you're doing is you're restoring an inner ordering within yourself. And we call that your inner ecology. So instead of having a monoculture, we have many different cultures existing within us. And we know what happens when you try to, you know, have, when you have a monoculture problems arise, you know.

Sally (22:28.11)
you

Sally (22:41.974)
Yeah.

Alexandra Pope (22:43.19)
land deadens. But when you start to restore an ecology, something comes back to life and also unknown things come to life. Shani, do want to take over?

Sjanie (22:55.614)
Yeah, just to say this monoculture is what most people are living inside of now because they aren't understanding and respecting the menstrual cycle. So it looks like one way of being is the only way of being and that's kind of doing more, you know, acting, yeah, being active and

energetic and assertive and goal-orientated and linear and more is better. That's sort of the, yeah, I'm summarizing it here, but if you look at our Oval Culture, we all know what we're talking about. It's very focused on youth and beauty and perfection and so on. That's the monoculture. And this word menstruality, which was

Sally (23:41.101)
Yeah.

Sally (23:46.659)
Yeah.

Sjanie (23:51.583)
coined by a psychotherapist, Jane Catherine Severn. She named the word to describe, she wrote an article in the Gestalt Journal to describe what she called the 4M. So it encompasses menarche, menstruation, menopause and the mature years. So menstruality is really the term that holds all of these biological, psychological, spiritual processes that we go through.

And as you were saying there, Alexandra, when we value this, we're actually now sitting inside a system of spiritual and psychological evolution. That's what the valuing of these different cultures, these different facets of ourselves, these different seasons of our lives and these different seasons of the cycle does, is it creates this dynamic diversity that allows

emergence that allows us to grow to awaken to become more than we were once before. And that we feel is both a personal process, but it's also collective because when many of us are practicing cycle awareness and respecting menstruality, there's a collective evolution that's accelerated. So, you know, which is why we make some of the bold claims we do about how

awareness of the menstrual cycle and conscious menopause is changing the world in a profound way. Yeah.

Sally (25:29.006)
I really think it is, yeah, because when you have an awareness of your own inner ecology, you start paying more attention to the outer ecology as well, the outer seasons, how we link together as a community as well.

Sjanie (25:38.492)
Exactly.

Sjanie (25:44.857)
Exactly, exactly. Yes, one of our graduates recently said something along the lines of the more they've come to accept the different seasons, inner seasons of themselves, the more they've been able to accept the diversity and difference in people around them and in the world around them, which feels so peace giving. And then as you also said, it just puts us in

Sally (26:06.424)
Yeah.

Sjanie (26:12.136)
touch with nature because we feel really embodied in this rhythm that is, you know, what's governing all of the natural world.

Sally (26:23.34)
Yeah. Yeah.

Alexandra Pope (26:24.228)
Yeah, it's, you know, the work of menstrual cycle awareness is a work of coming to deeply know yourself and who you are and what you're made for. And, and to really value that. And when we feel our own value, it's so much easier to value another, you know, so much of the violence and

Sally (26:40.078)
Hmm.

Alexandra Pope (26:52.63)
and destruction in the world today is sourced from our own inner pain of not knowing who we are. I just feel that, you know, whenever I'm sort of cut off from myself, I can feel how I get sort of touchy and sort of funny about others or, you know, it's so funny. Then I go, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Sally (27:10.614)
Yeah.

Sally (27:15.266)
bit judgy and a bit like pointy fingery, yeah.

Alexandra Pope (27:18.284)
Yeah, or a bit sort of, she's like, But the moment I feel the goodness of my own being, my heart opens to others. I am made sensitive to life. I am made sensitive to the natural world. It's a humanizing process. I'm constantly being humanized and tenderized and made permeable.

And I mean, it's a work of great love and intimacy ultimately.

Sally (27:54.841)
Such a lovely share. Yeah, thank you. One of the things that really struck me in your book was this idea of initiation and how initiation can be a bit brutal. Some of the words that you used, was like, my God, like throwing the torch to your life or what was it? What's the phrase that you use? Like blowing it all up or something like that. Burn the house down. Yeah, yeah. Which essentially,

Sjanie (28:17.63)
Burn the house down.

Sally (28:24.014)
is a death and a rebirth process, which is what the menopause transition is. And I can so relate, like I've definitely burned the house down more than once, metaphorically. So many people struggle with this idea of the death of the self and they resist it. Why do you think that is?

And I also want to ask you the question of what actually happens inside? Like if we surrender to it, if we lean into the death, the void, what do we find when we're there? So it's kind of a two-part question. Why do we resist the death? Why is it, like, is it really that scary when we fully surrender to it?

Sjanie (29:16.254)
Okay, I'll answer the first part, I?

Alexandra Pope (29:18.466)
Yeah, yeah, I think you should do the first bit that.

Sally (29:21.9)
So great having two of you here.

Sjanie (29:23.42)
So why do we resist the death? I'd say because it's so human to want to hold on to who we've been, who we think we are, to things being the same. I think that's just part of our human makeup and part of how we create safety for ourselves is by

you know, creating an identity, like have roles, we do things that give us affirmation and positive feedback. And we build a sense of who we are. And that becomes this lovely identity that we get to sit inside of. And it protects us from the much more kind of messy truth of what it means to be human. And so I think it's just very, very normal.

not to want to change and not to want to feel that armouring and the protection of that identity fall away. I would be concerned if you didn't resist it. It's just part of the process. But I think why it's such a catastrophe for those arriving at menopause is because so menopause is this kind of culmination

of your menstruating years, it is in itself an inner winter. So the end of a big cycle, the end of your, you know, fertile years. And as you've named this like death, psychological death process, but many people who arrive there have not been schooled in menstrual cycle awareness and not had the privilege of knowing.

about this practice of menstrual cycle awareness, which we've written about in our first co-authored book, Wild Power. And that's nobody's fault. It's because we live in a culture that has had the, you know, the cycles just been denied and demonized and shamed and forgotten. So there's a lot of catching up to do. But for those who do get schooled in cycle awareness and why we think cycle awareness is so important as

Sjanie (31:43.423)
part of creating a healthy, positive, good menopause experience is because it schools us in the death and rebirth process. Every menstrual month at menstruation during your inner winter, you go through a psychological death and a rebirth on a smaller scale, not on the big kind of big school scale that you go through at menopause, but on a small scale. So you get to have these little mini dress rehearsals of it every month.

And what that does is it builds in you a psychological, well, skill, a sort of spiritual skill set to be able to navigate this feeling of coming undone, losing control, falling apart, getting lost, and so on, feeling abandoned maybe on some level, and how to stay present in that, maybe how to hold yourself in that, how to...

touch into something deeper than what you were relying on before. And every time you have that little dress rehearsal, you build more of these skills and you develop more trust because you realize that you don't just die, you actually come up, you actually reform and you come out the other side new and more integrated and more you.

And so you're like, that wasn't that bad. Next time it comes down to like, wait a minute, I remember this last time. This wasn't the end. This was just a process that I was going through. I didn't actually die. And I was, it was actually, it was actually good. It actually worked out okay. So that builds a sense of trust. So when you come to menopause and you're going through it on a much bigger scale, you've got the inner skills to navigate it.

you've also developed this embodied trust in the cyclical process and that makes all the difference. Yeah.

Sally (33:49.775)
Yeah, yeah, you've had practice moving into like a mini death each month. It's like the micro and the macro, isn't it? So, so yeah, let me come to you, Alexandra, about the second part of that question. What happens if we actually lean into the void? What might we find there?

Alexandra Pope (33:57.838)
Mm-hmm.

Sjanie (33:58.013)
Yeah.

Alexandra Pope (34:01.39)
Yeah.

Alexandra Pope (34:17.378)
All right, I'm going to press my answer first by saying it's really important that we are resourced to be able to let go. Because, I mean, at some level, it is very scary. Because I also want to just note that we have such negative thinking about older women.

Sally (34:34.094)
Yeah.

Alexandra Pope (34:46.55)
as well. and menopause is such a moment of, you know, getting older, it's like the end and that sort of positive creative life is kind of over and we're just going to be put out to pasture. I'm sort of doing painting rather extreme picture, but this is very much in the field still. So there's a lot of forces, you know, that were that are sort of affecting us.

However, it's very powerful what Shania said. so coming to this let go, we do need to feel we have some resource in us in our being to be able to trust the let go. And, you know, that's sort of a separate conversation. But I just need to acknowledge that for those who are going, oh, yeah, that's all very well. I can't possibly let go. I've got, you know.

all this to hold and handle. I just really want to acknowledge that. So letting go.

Sally (35:46.925)
Yeah.

Alexandra Pope (35:51.759)
Well, always, whenever, you I always have this line, that's right, rebirth always follows death, you know, because it's, I go, great, I've got to die, great, you know, it's all, going to hell in a handbasket now, you know, whenever there's some kind of big challenge in ending that happens. And I always remind myself, okay, it's all right, because a death always heralds a rebirth. So that's my little playful way.

myself of handling it because it's not, you know, it doesn't feel great.

Sally (36:24.792)
Hmm.

Sjanie (36:26.514)
You always say, death always feels like death.

Alexandra Pope (36:29.572)
Yes, death always feels like death. And you never think, oh, there's going to be a rebirth. Although I keep, I always say that to myself. So yes, it always feels like death. But in many ways, you kind of have no choice because the resistance is what's crippling us.

Sally (36:37.006)
Thank

Sally (36:46.574)
yeah, that's huge. Yeah.

Alexandra Pope (36:48.836)
Yeah, that's what cripples us because the moment you turn, for instance, with menopause, the moment you turn and you meet menopause and you go, okay, I'm going through menopause. And this is a massive change, there is an ending going on. And if people have a book, for instance, they then have a have a framework by which they can go, oh, that's right, this is the ending of this life. And I now I'm going to go on a journey to, you know, read to

to give birth to a new life. If you've got that kind of framing, it really helps. But as you let go, and it involves giving space to yourself, you've got to have some time and space to be able to do this let go. The moment you do, it's like you open up a hidden trap door inside yourself, out of which things emerge.

It's extraordinary. Now there is an initial phase where you let go and it just feels like nothing. It's like, really, exhaustion. Exhaustion. And it's like your brain has been decommissioned and you just don't want to think about anything or any body. You just want to be in your own little bubble, which is exactly what you need. You need this lovely little cocoon for yourself.

Sally (37:55.66)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sally (38:14.478)
Mm.

Alexandra Pope (38:15.286)
and to just be in that cocoon and that being in that cocoon and that nothingness is like some kind of magic gets to work and I always love to use the analogy of winter. So the trees fall from the leaves.

Sjanie (38:34.418)
or the leaves fall from the trees even sometimes.

Alexandra Pope (38:37.982)
No no Charlie, it's the trees that fall from the leaves.

I told you do not contradict me. It's the trees that are crashing at the moment. Never mind these piddly little leaves. The trees are really going down there. Anyway, so the trees have gone along with some leaves as well. And then there's this... I'm making myself long.

Sjanie (38:47.07)
You

Silly me.

Sally (38:54.446)
that's a brilliant little slip there.

Sally (39:04.866)
Yeah.

Alexandra Pope (39:15.278)
And then nothing happens. know, there's nothingness. is, you know, and you know, that nothingness goes on for an awful long time. And then bingo, out of nothingness, a bud appears, a tiny little green shoot appears. And that's what happens in your psyche. But what the earth did was just do nothing. It rested. And then in that rest, you see, there's all this reparation going on under the...

Sally (39:18.595)
Yeah.

Alexandra Pope (39:45.132)
you know, in the soil. And that's what's happening in your psyche, Sally.

Sally (39:47.576)
See you.

Do you think the nothingness is what freaks people out?

Alexandra Pope (39:55.299)
Yes, and initially it is a feeling of abandonment and that's terrifying. That's not good, which is why we need this important framing for menopause which we're teaching and some post-menopause women as allies that see you. They can't come and save you, they can't do the work for you, but they know

Sally (40:02.029)
Yeah.

Alexandra Pope (40:20.302)
they're like the wise elders, know, they, anyone who's gone through menopause and really done their kind of work and they can look at you and it's almost like their witness can hold you in some way through that moment of abandonment. But the thing is you do, I want to say you do come through it, but you have to trust something. You actually really, it's a deep act of trusting yourself. There's a lot of kind of,

intimate detailed work that goes on here that we unpack in great detail in our book. But, and this is where resource-ness comes in, because if you're not resourced, it's not possible to trust that abandonment at all, actually. So, yes, there's the complete empty, the complete sense of loss and like even the gods, I remember at the moment where I felt even the gods and goddesses had abandoned me.

And it was like, okay. It really demanded something of me. But because of my years of menstrual cycle awareness, I had something in me that could meet it. But then you come to a place where you find it's, you kind of trust, you're in it, you're letting go and somehow it's okay. You haven't died, you're okay.

Sally (41:29.28)
Yeah.

Alexandra Pope (41:48.909)
And you just need to be able to just quietly get on with life in just a very quiet way without too much demand on you. don't definitely don't want to be trying to think of what's the meaning of my life or where am I going or trying to launch some new anything. You just need daily life to quietly tick over so you can just be like in winter, just being, being, And then I love this magic. I love the magic of the empty space.

Sally (42:18.019)
Yeah.

Alexandra Pope (42:18.156)
of the unknown you step into, because it starts talking to you, it just starts coming out of nowhere. It really does. It's extraordinary. mean, you know, all, all someone needs is a space to themselves, any woman, I'm sure will know this, the moment you have a bit of psychic space to yourself where you're not responsible for anybody else. Initially, you just feel tired, but honestly,

Within moments, ideas are popping, you know, yeah. And it's important not to rush off with these ideas. You just kind of sit and sort of watch the show really of what's sort of stirring in you. And it'll be radical stuff. Often quite radical changes you want to make with your life, but just a knowing. It's a knowing. And your mind, this is so important.

Sally (42:53.016)
Yeah.

Alexandra Pope (43:16.908)
your mind cannot come up with anything. It's not going to come from your head, from your left brain. It's just not. You've got to kind of just sit there, be patient and your left brain kind of, you know, proactive sort of mind will be going, tapping its fingers going, know, time's passing and you just got to shut up, shut up, shut up and just let yourself be and then

this from your being, from your being something that lies.

Sally (43:49.613)
Hmm, something emerges from your, from that, from the nothingness, like the shoots come up. Yeah, the crocuses and the daffodils. Yeah. Yeah, that, that's very, I've just spent 12 days on my own, actually, in Spain. First time I've been on my own for 15 years. like a long stretch of time. And I,

the opportunity just arose and I knew it was for me. It was to go and dog sit. The minute I saw it on Facebook, I was like, I know that's for me, but I'm scared. I'm really, really scared because I don't know what this is, you know, like, obviously you're right to be scared of the void because it feels like a deconstruction process. And I was nervous, but

Sjanie (44:40.476)
Mm.

Sally (44:45.312)
I actually really enjoyed that feeling of not being compressed mentally, of not having anything in the diary, being able to waft and float and potter and just allow those ideas to percolate. And I didn't read any books. I didn't listen to any podcasts. Like I thought, great, I've got 12 days. can learn a new language if I want to. But I did none of it. I was so happy just kind of

looking out, staring out into, you know, nothingness, looking at the view. And I was absolutely astounded at how much my brain had changed. Like the architecture of my brain had changed from those 15 years ago when I went away solo for two weeks and I just couldn't be with myself. I was chain smoking and drinking and I just couldn't. Yeah, I was trying to distract every moment.

I hated it. But this time was so different. I was like, wow, that feeling of spaciousness must really be what I need right now. being in the fortunate position to be able to lean into that gave me so much experience and knowledge and just a sense of a greater sense of inner peace.

and trust like, oh, okay, everything's working out as it should. Yeah, and thank goodness for me, like, you know, I've done a lot of work on myself. I'm actually, I don't know, I guess I'm post menopause now. I had an early menopause and I stopped bleeding like two years ago. And so, yeah, it's sometimes hard to know.

Sjanie (46:16.862)
and

Sally (46:40.62)
what stage of menopause I'm in because I feel like my perimenopause, and we'll get onto the language of perimenopause in a minute, but I feel like my perimenopause was so much more of tumultuous time that I was so grateful to stop bleeding actually and just have that winter. Like for me, I've always, not always, but more recently, I love winter because it's like a real permission slip to stop.

Sjanie (47:05.16)
Mm-hmm.

Sjanie (47:09.822)
Mmm. Mmm. Mmm.

Sally (47:10.446)
stop. Thank God I don't have to socialise. I just want to be with myself.

Sjanie (47:20.286)
Mmm. Mmm.

Alexandra Pope (47:21.348)
So beautiful. Yeah, beautifully illustrates, yeah, what I was sort of indicating. It's a lovely example.

Sally (47:23.246)
Thank you.

Sally (47:27.854)
Mmm.

Sally (47:32.131)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't fear it. I mean, obviously we are all so different. And, you know, I get, I've had sad syndrome before where you, you really are terrified of the winter coming and you feel bleak and dark and depressed and heavy and all of that. I've been there myself. So I do understand, but I think through your work actually, through understanding the power of winter, I kind of just decided to lean into it a bit more and embrace its gifts.

Yeah. So, okay, actually coming on to the definition of perimenopause, because I know in your book you call it something different, you call it the quickening. Can you explain why you call it the quickening and what actually the quickening is? So I feel like we're going in, we've gone to the void, now we're coming back to the quickening. I probably should have put that question before, but hey.

Sjanie (48:27.774)
Yeah.

Actually, no, think talking about menopause and this inner winter first actually is really a good ground for us to talk about this, like what comes before. I think because the kind of inside knowledge of menstruality has been lost, and that's really what Alexandra and I have been working to recover in all our work at Red School, the...

references to the these experiences that we have are mostly medical terms and they don't really capture the full kind of psychological spiritual process of these different stages and phases like menopause is medically is just you know it's a one-day event after you haven't bled for you know a year but

We know we are cyclical beings and we're actually in a process and menopause is actually a season of our lives that lasts for like two to five years and the stopping bleeding is just one of the biological markers in that psycho spiritual transition. So when we talk about menopause we're talking about it as this season, this whole death and rebirth experience.

So that really holds it more true to what we're actually going through and language I think is so important in terms of being able to orientate ourselves. And because the medical world is, you know, called menopause this one day event, then this term perimenopause just describes sort of everything else around it from apparently age 35 onwards. And the loss of the actual seasons of our menstruality

Sjanie (50:26.845)
is quite devastating with that language. we go through from Menarche to Menopause, we go through seasons in our menstruality, like from our first period, we move into the spring of our menstruating life in our twenties, then the summer in our thirties roughly, and then the autumn of our menstruating life in our forties, and then Menopause is the winter. And

What comes before the winter menopause is the autumn of our menstruating life. So this is often what people call perimenopause. And typically this is in your forties. And yes, it can be very tumultuous, just like the pre-menstruum is very tumultuous in the menstrual cycle. It is the feedback moment in the menstrual cycle or the feedback phase.

And it's the feedback phase in our menstruating life arc as well. So this is where all the ways we have intended to care for ourselves, anything that's sort of unconscious, unprocessed, et cetera, on a physical, psychological, spiritual level, all just comes up. And the way it comes up is through symptoms.

whether those are physical symptoms or psychological symptoms, often trauma surfaces, again. So it can often feel like a crisis. And particularly, again, if we haven't been practicing menstrual cycle awareness, we haven't had that monthly pre-menstrual awareness where we do that monthly in a integration and reflecting and course correcting. It can really hit hard.

in our 40s. And yeah, so it can be really, really tough. And for many people, I know it can feel like they're going completely crazy. And all kinds of things come up that are a bit shocking, actually, you know, to kind of suddenly feel

Sjanie (52:48.357)
anxious all the time or to suddenly feel so exhausted all the time and so on. Yeah. So I hope just speaking that actually gives people a context because when you know this information and you know where you're at in terms of the kind of overall cyclical process, you can start to just apply some of the

Sally (52:55.467)
Hmm.

Sjanie (53:16.519)
what I want to call like natural law of the menstrual cycle and of menstruality, which is that the pre-menstruum, the inner autumn of our lives is the gear change moment. know, Alexandra spoke about the trees falling off the leaves in our inner winter. That happens, the leaves fall off in the pre-menstruum. That is the shedding so that we can be laid to rest at menopause. So all this inner work.

Sally (53:42.914)
Hmm.

Sjanie (53:46.021)
that is required in the, in, in your forties in perimenopause is preparing you for that let go at menopause. It's like, yeah, it's getting you ready for that big initiation.

Sally (53:55.809)
Yeah.

Sally (54:01.167)
Yeah, thank you. For me, Perimenopause was like seeing things as they really were. it was a, yeah, I was like, oh my God, life, like it's not all rainbows and fairies. Like there was a real sense of having to grow up. And there was a real sense as well of, oh my God, I've just been a child up until.

Sjanie (54:10.983)
Very true. Yes, yes, everything gets very real.

Sally (54:29.902)
Now I'm 42 years, well, I'm 49 now, when I was about 42, I had this, oh my God, all of the adults around me are now younger than me. You know, that sense of all the families, all the people with families are younger than me. how did that happen? And then there's just this real like, I've just been a child, and now I've got to wake up and grow up and do all this inner work.

Sjanie (54:42.653)
Yeah.

Sjanie (54:50.545)
Yeah.

Sjanie (54:59.229)
Yeah.

Alexandra Pope (55:00.386)
Yeah, it's, I want to say, I want to really say something very strongly about the 40s. Following on from what you've just said there, Sally, about this realization that I've got to grow up. There is this very distinct gear change where you are stepping into greater responsibility, self responsibility, all sorts of just, yeah, grown up.

Sally (55:00.622)
Ugh.

Sally (55:09.251)
Hmm.

Alexandra Pope (55:28.288)
is the word, you just have to become a little, and you grow up again of course at menopause, majorly. But that moment is, I think for me, it's an invitation that moment to step into a greater level of authority and power and I really see the 40s as a time of real mastery.

Sally (55:33.208)
Yeah.

Alexandra Pope (55:55.621)
you go into such a very different kind of sense of power post menopause. But in our 40s, we're still in that kind of

Sjanie (56:08.101)
engaged.

Alexandra Pope (56:09.252)
engaged mainstream thinking about power, know, real mastery, control of your, you know, world, you know, fantasy of the control of your life. And you're coming, I think, into your expertise more and more within the world, you're becoming more embodied in the world, if you like, as a substantiality to it. I think is perhaps the word I'm feeling for here.

And I feel it's a real healthy relishing of your power and authority. It's like healthy, egoic claiming of yourself. And I feel that just that's getting lost in this language, this languaging around perimenopause. And people then immediately think they're on a slide now down to the end. And while it's really important that

Sjanie (56:43.325)
Mm-hmm.

Sjanie (56:48.605)
Hmm

Alexandra Pope (57:05.668)
the changes are named and people have got huge relief from this languaging that's now current. I believe there's a loss happening in terms of really claiming what your forties are about. I think you've struck, you've struck your stuff in your forties.

Sjanie (57:20.55)
Yeah.

Totally, yeah. This conversation about power and perimenopause, know, or power and the autumn of your menstrual life, it's just not happening. It's all about like symptoms breakdown and destruction, which yeah, you're so right, Alexandra, because it is actually about a profound maturation and sense of, and so when we use that word quickening, Sally, to answer your questioning, we're actually talking about this

waking up that happens in you like a newfound urgency and I don't mean rushiness but like a sense of deepening purpose and like actually my life is limited, there's stuff I want to do, I don't want to mess around anymore, I don't want to waste my time and energy with people or things that are not it. So it's that, your calling and what you're here for starts to become

much more of the beating pulsing drum that is moving you and part of this feeling of power is to actually step into what you're good at and recognize what you're good at and liberate yourself in that you know more and more.

Sally (58:38.604)
Yeah, you're right. We don't talk about that. I don't see that enough at all on social media. Go on, Alexandra.

Alexandra Pope (58:45.956)
Well, just to come in here, and I really love this about the work of Laura Brydon, that this is an incredible window of opportunity around your health. You if you're starting to notice symptoms, it's your body going, hello, you cannot take me for granted anymore. This is a signal you're getting older, you have to up your self care, you have to up your game now around managing your boundaries, you have to have...

a new relationship with how you use your energy because you don't have the same kind of energy you had in your 20s and your 30s. You still have energy much more than you will have later down the track at say 70. But you have a different kind of energy at 70 you see. You're trading different types of energy here but you don't want to waste this energy of your 40s.

So, you know, if there are symptoms happening, you know, tend to your health, tend to your boundaries, you know, ask yourself, know, Shani talked about this sort of refining of coming much more into yourself, you know, tend to that. And then you will have this new lease of life, I believe, you'll then, and really importantly, because of that up-leveling in your self-care, you are positioning yourself beautifully for menopause.

So instead of arising at menopause completely spent, you arrive feeling buffered by something both physically and of course psychologically.

Sally (01:00:20.942)
Yeah, cocooned, wrapped up in a nice blanket of protection.

Alexandra Pope (01:00:24.226)
Hmm.

Like, you know, it's egoic protection that you've got. You say, yeah, yeah, I'm a somebody, you know, I've done this, I've done that. And feel like a somebody because God's at menopause that somebody is going to take, it's going to just be dismantled. Yeah, bit by bit.

Sally (01:00:45.536)
I see what you mean. Yeah. So you've already built up a sense of self, maybe a greater sense of identity. You've taken up a bit more space in the world. Yeah. And then you can go into menopause with that created.

Alexandra Pope (01:00:54.53)
Definitely. Yeah.

Sjanie (01:01:03.175)
Mm-hmm.

Alexandra Pope (01:01:03.33)
Yeah, so it's kind of like a buffering. You can feel, you've built a healthy egoic sense of yourself of going, yeah, you you can take your own side, you can fight your own corner. And so when it starts to be dismantled, there is, you know, some vestige of something that still keeps standing.

Sally (01:01:23.15)
That's great, I like that.

Alexandra Pope (01:01:27.716)
It's made me sound so terrible, but honestly, I have to say it wasn't for me. It wasn't. Yeah, even as I ticked all the boxes, you know, it's okay. It's okay. Yeah.

Sally (01:01:39.117)
Yeah.

I think that's what's happened to me actually, because I'm 49 and I do feel like I have this year in particular sort of started to really come into my own. I feel like I've really started to create a foundational identity that I don't think is going anywhere.

It might do, obviously if something happens then the ground beneath you shakes but there's something much more permanent that feels like it's, that it has, I don't know, come up out of somewhere. So.

Alexandra Pope (01:02:15.981)
Thank

Sally (01:02:26.602)
We've been chatting for about an hour and I'd like to, honestly this conversation has gone so quickly. I'd like to start rounding things off. I mean, I could talk to you for another hour, but I want to respect your time. In the book, you talk about when menopause truly takes hold.

it's because in a way you might have outgrown your cycle. And when I read that, I was like, wow, that is such a different way of looking at it. And I know you experienced this yourself, Alexandra. So what was it about your cycle that you no longer needed? What had you outgrown and what had you grown into?

Alexandra Pope (01:03:20.292)
It's interesting question. I've never been asked it. And I remember the moment very distinctly. had just presented something at a conference at the University of Western Sydney. And I was just getting back into my car and bizarrely had just started bleeding. I found I used to just bleed whenever I did something around menstruation or the menstrual cycle, like pinch or talk, because I was now in menopause.

Sally (01:03:49.4)
Yeah.

Alexandra Pope (01:03:49.945)
menopause and I was getting into my car and I just had this, I felt a sort of dignity in me, kind of inner sort of something, you know, my spine straightening up and I had this thought wash through me, I thought, you know what, I don't need the cycle anymore, it's okay, it's done its business, it's completed something and I think in that moment I felt readied for menopause.

Sjanie (01:04:08.509)
you

Alexandra Pope (01:04:19.584)
So, you know, the cycle, I always call it your training wheels for becoming yourself. And at menopause, you kick off the training wheels, you don't need them anymore, because now you know yourself. Yeah, and you don't need that anymore, because now you know yourself and you're away. So it's like the menstrual cycle years are like preparation for something. So in fact, your postmenopause years are now.

Sally (01:04:32.974)
Yeah.

Sally (01:04:37.806)
from them.

Alexandra Pope (01:04:48.738)
the beginning of really delivering something. It's not the end, it's actually the beginning of something huge, or could be. Yeah, so it was a thought that came to me that something in me was now sort of complete and ready for menopause.

Sally (01:04:57.646)
Hmm.

Sally (01:05:05.96)
Hmm. Yeah, makes perfect sense actually. I think that's how I felt. Yeah, I think that's how I felt. remember, I kind of remember the last period I had thinking, I'm so done. I really don't need this. I don't need this anymore. Like I know who I am, free me from this. So I can actually get to know myself on a different level. So Sharni, from your point of view.

Alexandra Pope (01:05:12.258)
Mmm, nice.

Alexandra Pope (01:05:23.182)
Thank

Okay.

Sally (01:05:34.808)
How do you see the rebirth? Because we talk about the death and the rebirth of the menopause transition. For you, I know you're not quite there yet, I don't think, but how do you envision this idea of rebirth? What are we rebirthing into?

Sjanie (01:05:57.528)
think you should answer this Alexandra because I am not there and yeah I think I have my imaginings and what I know from my experience of the menstrual cycle but yeah what would you say Alexandra?

Alexandra Pope (01:06:12.16)
It's really an unleashing of who you really are. And you have, I remember that moment so clearly in menopause where I just suddenly got who I was. went, my God, this is who I am. And you suddenly get your own and it's everything I knew about myself, but it was almost like I could now really accept that and stop trying to perhaps subtly judge myself for not.

being all these other things, there was just a falling away and a full recognition of my nature. You know, and it was very sweet and lovely and tender. thought, this is who I am. And it was from that moment that really that something could really be unleashed in me because I knew what my calling was. I had made all the changes.

and decisions to fully step into the work we're now doing. But now I was really stepping up to something. I felt unleashed. So you're being birthed into the fullness of your calling, what you're about. mean, calling is a grand word. Not everyone has that. But just who you are, how you want to be in the world.

regardless of what others think. It's like making peace with something in yourself. And then you can kind of just go about your business just being easier with yourself. It's lovely.

Sally (01:07:47.662)
Mmm.

Sjanie (01:07:48.925)
Thank

Sally (01:07:50.541)
Yeah, yeah, that tenderness. I know you speak about that, the tenderness and the innocence. Yeah, she's beautiful. And we just had that little glimpse of a small person coming through the door.

Sjanie (01:08:04.315)
Yeah, that's innocence embodied right there.

Sally (01:08:07.758)
Exactly that, exactly. Listen, it's been so lovely talking to you both. And I know you've got some things coming up. This podcast episode is going to be released next Friday. So maybe you would like to chat about what you've got coming up. You've got a free three-day event coming up, is that right?

Alexandra Pope (01:08:08.11)
Thanks

Sjanie (01:08:31.655)
Yeah, we are loving the fact that October has become World Menopause Month, which is fantastic. And we're so excited about the fact that there's all this conversation going on about menopause. And the conversation that we're having at Red School, we feel is very fresh and bringing a whole nother thread to what actually is going on in menopause. So we're gonna be putting a lot of free

education over the month of October. And then on the 21st, 22nd and 23rd of October, we're running a three day live event, which will also be recorded, where we are going to be talking through the sort of inner architecture of menopause and what the specific process is, the psychological and spiritual process is that you go through.

through the five phases of menopause, which we write about in our book. And we've got a very powerful guided process that we take people into to really put them deeply inside their own experience and feel the holding of menopause and the sense of kind of trust in where they're at and what's happening to them. So this is an event we've run before and it is wonderful because there people from all around the world and such a strong sense of community.

Alexandra Pope (01:09:39.204)
I love that exercise.

Sjanie (01:10:01.215)
So we're very excited about that. And that's all in the lead up to our annual six week online course starting, which is called Menopause, The Great Awakener, which is a very rich, deep dive into these five phases of menopause. And we are offering these very specific inner skills and tools.

be able to navigate these different phases of the process and to really understand what can come up and actually really how to navigate these different facets of menopause. That's a really good thing to do for anybody who's in the lead up to menopause or in menopause or actually even post menopause and it's wonderful because when you join you can come back

the live event every year so we have some people returning for the fourth the fifth time and it can be this companion throughout your menopause journey that you can keep coming back to this community back to the teachings back to the tools and practices we offer and just really be held inside this new story of menopause which is one that actually dignifies the experience and doesn't just talk about it as a design floor or a kind of physical breakdown it actually is a spiritual

Awakening. Dignity. Exactly.

Sally (01:11:28.93)
That's the word for me, dignity and dignified. Yeah, it's such a strong word because I was thinking of the word validate, like what you do really validates the experience and that's the right word as well. But dignity is even stronger.

Sjanie (01:11:40.947)
Yeah.

Sjanie (01:11:44.562)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Alexandra Pope (01:11:44.649)
Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm.

Sally (01:11:49.422)
Can you train wellness practitioners in menstrual cycle awareness, menstruality as well? that right? Do you have a practitioner training too at Red School?

Sjanie (01:12:01.104)
Now, and it isn't just for wellness practitioners, actually, we have creatives, nurturers, entrepreneurs, people in all sorts of different spheres of professional lives, who want to integrate menstruality and menstrual cycle awareness into what they're doing, because really they understand that this is at the core of our experience.

as women, but also that when we restore this into these different environments, that it does this wonderful reordering that we spoke about, know, this bringing this in ecology and yeah, putting things sort of back in their place. So people from all sorts of fields come and do this work. And it's called the Menstruality Leadership Program. So it's a 13 week long study with us.

And that happens in February, 2026. And then we actually have a postgraduate program following on from that as well. So yes, we've got a community of about 750 graduates from all around the world now. There's a wonderful network of peer support and professional support and people are using this work professionally in all kinds of very exciting ways.

Sally (01:13:11.63)
Wow.

Sjanie (01:13:22.973)
So yes, for anybody who's excited about this and can feel that this is the missing piece in what they're doing, the menstruality leadership program is the place to come.

Sally (01:13:35.264)
Yeah, it sounds like it will make life make more sense by understanding this. Yeah.

Sjanie (01:13:40.381)
Exactly. Yeah, well said.

Alexandra Pope (01:13:43.06)
Absolutely, Absolutely. Yeah.

Sally (01:13:48.626)
my gosh, this has been a little dream come true for me. Thank you so much for sharing this hour, hour and a bit with me. I really hope that the listeners listening have gained, I'm sure they have gained so much from this conversation in the way that I have. Your energy is just wonderful. Like it's a delight to be here. My nervous system is so regulated. I've not been on any like, you know.

too many peaks and troughs or anything like that. I just feel really calm, really stable around you too. And yeah, it's just been a joy. So thank you so much.

Sjanie (01:14:29.585)
Yeah, well, thank you very much. I've found it deeply pleasurable as well. And I've loved the questions you've asked and the way the conversations unfolded. It's been creative, really creative. Yeah.

Sally (01:14:41.166)
Hmm

Alexandra Pope (01:14:42.5)
And speaking of nervous systems, my nervous system has felt very sort of chilled, you know, just in its place quietly ticking over. Yeah, it has been a deeply, deeply satisfying, rewarding, meaty conversation. gosh, we love talking about this and thank you so much for inviting us.

Sally (01:14:53.708)
Yeah, good.

Sally (01:15:04.492)
Yeah.

you're so welcome.