187 Unmasking Your Sexual Self with Lucy Rowett

Join me and Lucy Rowett in our frank and honest conversation about how faith backgrounds and conservatism might be rubbing our libido up the wrong way.

Lucy Rowett is a certified sexologist and sex coach and the host of the Naked and Unashamed Life podcast that focuses on sexual wellness. And in this conversation, we talk about:

🌱 Exploring Sexual Shame and Faith Backgrounds

🌱 The Impact of Conservatism on Sexuality

🌱 Understanding Sexual Blocks and Their Origins

🌱 The Role of People Pleasing in Sexual Satisfaction

🌱 Understanding Libido and Desire

🌱 Responsive vs. Spontaneous Desire

🌱 Navigating the 'Ick Factor'

🌱 Embracing Sexual Identity Post-Menopause

So if you’re ready to be educated and inspired, tune in now.

DM me for the link or see link in bio or just search The Menopause Mindset episode 187

Lucy’s links:

Website: https://www.lucyrowett.com 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lucylurowett/ 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lucyrowettcsc 

Substack: https://shamelesswoman.substack.com/

Sally's Links:

[Free Guide] Healing The Trauma Underlying Your Menopause Symptom Severity:  https://www.sallygarozzo.com/healingtraumatheguide

[On Demand Masterclass 2 hours] How To Heal The Trauma Underlying Your Menopause Symptom Severity [£17] https://www.sallygarozzo.com/healingtrauma

[On Demand Workshop] Redefine Your Values at Menopause and Live Life in Alignment With Them [£27] https://www.sallygarozzo.com/redefine 

[Online Practitioners Diploma - Self Paced] Menopause Wellbeing Practitioner [£127] https://www.sallygarozzo.com/meno

[One to One] Transformational 30 Day Rewire (Includes RTT) [£447]: https://www.sallygarozzo.com/rapid-transformational-therapist

Instagram:  https://www.instagram.com/sallygarozzomindmentor

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sallygarozzo/

Send me a voice clip via WhatsApp - https://wa.me/message/FTARBMO7CRLEL1

Transcript

Sally (00:00.816)
So my guest today is, for the second time actually on this podcast, is Lucy Rowitt. Hi Lucy!

Lucy Rowett (00:05.166)
Hi Sally, it's great to be back. Can you pronounce my surname correctly as well? Which big fan of...

Sally (00:12.37)
Ha!

Well, we aim to please, I like to get people's names right. So I'm just gonna give you a little shout out. So you are a certified sexologist, a sex coach, and you're very passionate about helping women and people with vulvas to really let go of their sexual shame, their hangups, and to really embrace pleasure, and to create passion in their relationships. And you're the host of your own podcast, the Naked.

Lucy Rowett (00:17.546)
Hahaha

Lucy Rowett (00:26.668)
Yes. Yes.

Lucy Rowett (00:43.372)
Have my own podcast.

Sally (00:44.742)
And how's that going, by the way?

Lucy Rowett (00:47.534)
really enjoy it. I mean, when I set it up, I deliberately didn't want to give myself a strict schedule because then I knew that the joy would be taken out of it. Some people, when they start podcasts, they're like, right, I'm to do it every week or I'm going to have this big fancy launch. And I was like, it's going to be a labour of fun and love and creativity rather than a must. And that way it just feels much better.

Sally (00:53.585)
Mm-hmm.

Sally (01:12.496)
Yeah. Yeah, I love it. That's exactly how I approach my podcast as well. Absolutely love speaking to my guests and just learn so much from all the guests that I have. It's so nice. So your podcast is called Naked and Unashamed Life. Is that right?

Lucy Rowett (01:22.765)
Yeah.

Lucy Rowett (01:28.778)
life. The naked and unashamed life, yes.

Sally (01:30.928)
The Naked and Unashamed Life. Yeah, okay, so if you like Lucy, go and check out her podcast. She's also regularly quoted in the media for her expertise in sexual health and wellness. You've been in Cosmo, you've been in GQ, you've been in Glamour Magazine, Men's Health, so you're everywhere, which is brilliant.

Lucy Rowett (01:41.07)
I am.

Lucy Rowett (01:54.702)
Try to be.

Sally (01:55.44)
Yeah, well we need your advice. So I'm glad that you're back because you've got so much wisdom to offer our listeners who might be curious to explore the idea of libido and why it perhaps changes as we go through the menopause transition. But actually I know that you work with people

predominantly, I mean you work with lots of people but you work with your, I would say your special interest is people with faith backgrounds, is that right?

Lucy Rowett (02:25.974)
It is, I'd say like maybe 50%. So like, I love working with people from faith backgrounds and also with people from non-faith backgrounds, but I talk a lot about faith backgrounds because that's my own particular background. And I have very intimate knowledge, not just knowledge, lived experience of what it's like knowing that I've got my own bias.

Sally (02:29.297)
Okay.

Sally (02:33.457)
Mm-hmm.

Sally (02:47.858)
Yes, okay. So, faith backgrounds and sexual blocks. Is there a link? Okay.

Lucy Rowett (02:56.428)
Hmm. God, yes. Well, and then not just me speaking from experience, there's quite a lot of studies that reference this and back this up. I think probably the most commonly known one, and I wish I'd looked this up beforehand to cite it, I'm gonna have to send you links, is that women who, there's been quite a few studies that...

Sally (03:07.633)
Mm-hmm.

Sally (03:14.598)
Yeah, put it in the show notes.

Lucy Rowett (03:19.476)
suggest or show that women who come from religious or conservative backgrounds, whether that's Islam, whether that's Christianity, different forms of Christianity, much higher rates of basically sexual pain disorders. So vaginismus, vulvodynia, basically pain on penetration. So that's one really tangible kind of documented way in which we know that if you are from a faith or conservative background,

that the rates of vulva and vaginal pain are so much higher than people not from those backgrounds. Which, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Sally (03:52.057)
Wow, that is an extraordinary correlation, isn't it? And is that people who might not necessarily themselves have adopted a faith, but maybe they've been raised by grandparents or parents who have had a certain faith and because of that there's been like a conservative sort of energy in the house.

Lucy Rowett (04:10.958)
Oh yeah, I mean absolutely. There's a lot of things to consider like, you as I'm saying this, I'm a British woman, I'm a white middle-class British woman. So my family is very middle-class Church of England. So my experience would be different for somebody even from the UK, but if you're a black woman and you grew up in the gospel church, or you grew up going to very charismatic churches, it's been a very different experience if you grew up Irish Catholic. There's lots of similarities, but there's differences as well.

and you've hit the nail on the head that even if you didn't adopt the faith personally or if you did but then deconstructed if you left the faith years ago where you decided, nope, I don't consciously believe that anymore and yet it's still showing up in your body. That is super, super common as well. And also remember that it depends also on your culture and your, I your culture of origin because if you grew up in a very conservative culture, a very conservative country,

even if your parents were secular, it's still everywhere else. It's still in your friends, in your extended family, in your schools, in your universities, the dominant over-culture. So it's everywhere. It can go everywhere.

Sally (05:25.212)
So what makes conservatism create these sexual blocks? Like what is it about conservatism in and of itself? And I'm kind of talking small C here. Yeah, do have any ideas on that?

Lucy Rowett (05:38.616)
Okay, that-

It's the look on my face as you're saying that I'm sort of thinking first of all, how, where do I start? Because it's, and also if you're somebody from a conservative background, as in not the UK conservative party, as in culturally conservative, religiously conservative, you'll know that first of all, there's a big caveat here. Cultures vary, but there's a lot of similarities.

Sally (05:50.694)
Yeah.

Sally (06:02.491)
Yeah.

Lucy Rowett (06:12.768)
often a big focus on gender roles. Men are like this, women are like this, things are a bit more separated and segregated. In my personal upbringing that wasn't so much the case, but for lot of people it can be. But also remember that conservative cultures, they go hand in hand with religious cultures and there is no main world religion that is overly sex positive, affirming towards female sexual pleasure.

Sally (06:15.675)
Right.

Lucy Rowett (06:41.462)
Of course there are always pockets. Somebody reminded me that every single main world religion does have a sex positive branch to it, but it's usually very, very small. Like even within Christianity you have the book and the Bible song of songs. And if you grew up in the church or you're familiar with the Bible, and if you grew up with that, either that book would have been glossed over or it would have been said, no, it's just, it's a metaphor for.

Sally (06:51.16)
Okay.

Lucy Rowett (07:09.582)
Christ's relationship with the church, it's definitely not soft core. Because there's some quite explicit verses in there. If you read Song of Songs, there's only so much bypassing of saying it's metaphorical of Christ's marriage to the church that you can say, yeah, it's not. And also, yeah, even within Islam, within Orthodox Judaism, there are pockets of sex affirmingness. The problem is it's not.

Sally (07:14.318)
Okay.

Sally (07:27.858)
exists, yeah.

Lucy Rowett (07:37.656)
First of all, it doesn't permeate the whole culture, but often all conservative cultures will have a rigid focus on, I guess, what it is to be a woman and how women should dress, how women should behave, what it is to be a quote unquote good woman. And all of them, it's some form of dressing modestly, of covering your body, of not appearing to be wanton or slutty or anything else.

And then also remember that in conservative cultures and countries, won't usually be any kind of sex ed. None. The most you'll get is either finding some magazines if you're lucky, or maybe if you're about to get married and your mum or your auntie takes you to one side. Again, I'm massively overgeneralizing, but we're seeing this in the US, we're seeing this in lots of countries where sex ed does not exist. Even the basic how to put a condom on a banana.

Sally (08:10.822)
Yeah.

Lucy Rowett (08:34.604)
And that's barely sex ed in itself. So it's kind of this perfect storm of female eroticism, female sexuality is very demonised, it's very policed, not policed, but very rigid how women are allowed to show up and how they're allowed to be. A lot of should, a lot of, you know, even the thing of I often feel a bit uncomfortable when it comes to insisting women dress modestly.

Sally (08:36.977)
Yeah.

Sally (08:49.561)
lots of shoulds

Lucy Rowett (09:02.732)
because for me it's like well then you're making certain body parts worse than others, you're saying that this is more sexual than this part. I really have a very uncomfortable relationship with that. But also when you combine it with the religious teachings where there's a lot of shame, a lot of shoulding, a lot of you almost having to police your own desires and thoughts and attitudes, in conservative cultures there can be a lot of

I could say hypocrisy, where we know that there's quite a few studies that show that in areas or countries that are more conservative, they have not just higher porn usage, but higher rates of other sexual behaviours that are not particularly wanted. If you grew up in a conservative culture, environment, family, you probably would have known the men in your family, or you would have known a man personally who displayed very hypocritical behaviour, where in public he was very...

righteous, moral, a good man, and in private was doing some pretty shoddy things. So this is what I see happens in a lot of conservative cultures and groups and religious spaces, and I don't think it's helpful for anybody.

Sally (10:14.458)
Wow. It's really not, it? It's so useful. It's so useful to deconstruct this and have you on so that we can really kind of understand why someone might be having, quote unquote, those sexual blocks. And even the word sexual blocks kind of makes it seem like it's the person's fault for having those issues. And when you peel it back, it's not, is it?

Lucy Rowett (10:18.487)
No.

Lucy Rowett (10:36.404)
Yeah. This is, yeah. This is like one of my constant bugbears and frustrations in client work and whatever. It's that a woman will come to me feeling that there's something terribly wrong with her, especially if she's done a lot of therapy before, she's done maybe coaching before, maybe she's done some body work or tantra. And it's this overall message that

I'm the problem, I'm the one who's shut down, I'm the one who's repressed, I'm the one. And I'm sort of thinking, God, how long have we got to try and deconstruct everything to explain you're really not the problem? It makes complete sense why your body and whatever is responding the way it is, if we think about what you learned growing up, if we think about the culture that you maybe live in now, if we think about the attitudes that you have towards your body, all of these things, well, of course.

Of course you feel like this, there's nothing wrong with you, it's the system that's wrong.

Sally (11:38.332)
Yeah, your nervous system is actually responding in the correct way in the environment. Yeah.

Lucy Rowett (11:43.412)
Exactly. I literally said this to a client earlier, like there's literally nothing wrong with you. Your body and nervous system is actually doing exactly what it's designed to do. And it sucks and it doesn't feel good, but it's doing what it's supposed to do. It's detecting threat. And some things that like sexologists we say is that when you are in a culture that is sex negative in terms of no sex ed, where it's very much sex

this message that sex is bad, dirty, shameful and wrong, save it for someone you love, hide it behind a curtain, definitely don't touch yourself, don't have these lustful thoughts. In fact it's something that's very taboo but also it's something that's very exciting because we're also going to sexualise women on TV so it's this very confusing thing. That in itself creates a form of trauma, although I'm mindful of how we use the word trauma, I don't want to say everyone's traumatised like that, because well

Well of course. It's like when you're creating a lot of mystery and a lot of emotional build up around something and also forbidding any kind of education around it, it's not just ignorance. It means that your body and system is going to be perceiving fear. It's going to be perceiving sexuality as a threat. And also think that when we're having sex with someone we're generally naked. Generally. Most of the time naked. We're showing them our genitals. So we're already feeling vulnerable.

Sally (13:05.916)
Yeah.

Lucy Rowett (13:11.372)
like literally being physically naked, literally being penetrated, can be very, very vulnerable. So it makes complete sense that your nervous system is going to be detecting, my God, threat.

Sally (13:22.534)
Yeah. Yeah, it's like this battle, isn't it? This internal war. Like on the one hand, we're told it's wrong, it's dirty, it's shameful, we've got to keep it behind closed doors. But on the other hand, we're seeing these pictures on TV of erotic pictures, images that are actually making us feel quite turned on. So it's like there's this dichotomy that's existing in our psyche. God, yeah.

Lucy Rowett (13:40.834)
Yeah.

Yeah, and it

Lucy Rowett (13:48.599)
Yeah.

And also remember this doesn't just exist within religious or conservative cultures, this is secular world as well. Think about it even in the UK alone, even though the UK in general is a secular culture overall, it wasn't that long ago that religion was a big part of our culture, a century ago. It's not that long. And...

Sally (14:06.406)
Yeah.

Sally (14:13.681)
Yeah.

Lucy Rowett (14:17.826)
That also affects the sex ed that we're taught or not taught. It affects, I mean, this gets quite, not quite political, but there's a organisation called the Centre for Intimacy Justice because I'm a sex educator on social media. Anybody who talks about sex online, we're constantly censored on social media. I can't, I don't even bother trying to run ads. I'm not going down that line.

and the Center for Intimacy Justice did a big report to show that not just sex educators but wellness companies, any company that worked with women's wellness, sexual wellness, their ads were repeatedly banned, flagged, profiles taken down, whereas companies that were selling things like Viagra or around male sexual wellness would always get through. So we're seeing this bias even in social media.

where I always have to bloody misspell the word sex.

Sally (15:16.434)
Mmm.

It makes me laugh because every time I walk past my eggs I think of you.

Lucy Rowett (15:23.936)
I know. I had extra breakfast as well. it's like, you know, whereas there's really misogynistic stuff online that's allowed to be there. So we're seeing that literally filtered in real time in real world where people trying to give educational, informational affirmative stuff, we're being banned and shadow banned and blocked and censored. But

Sally (15:37.382)
Yeah.

Lucy Rowett (15:52.972)
Other stuff isn't. So again, it's...

Sally (15:54.354)
So the information's not getting through.

Lucy Rowett (15:58.124)
As- no, not as much. No. No.

Sally (15:59.41)
No, which is why we need to have these conversations and that's another reason why I'm glad you're here. I'd like to talk... go on, sorry.

Lucy Rowett (16:06.498)
Yeah, well, I was going to say it's why I'm also cautiously optimistic. Like, I do sound like I'm being doom and gloom, but I think it's not just me. There are so many sex educators and people online talking now. If you think about it, every year new people get certified, new people do sex coaching, sex therapy trainings. There's just so many more of us. I think the tide is starting. It is turning. It's just that the old system is putting up a fight.

unfortunately.

Sally (16:36.56)
Yeah, it's good. I'm glad that you think it's the tide is turning. That's, that fills me with some hope.

Lucy Rowett (16:43.246)
Hmm.

Sally (16:44.048)
I'd love to look at the role of people pleasing actually with you and how it can relate to not being fully satisfied with our sex lives. What do you see in your practice with, I mean, I call people pleasing a coping strategy. It usually comes from some kind of complex trauma, some attachment wounds from childhood that

Lucy Rowett (16:48.941)
Hmm.

Lucy Rowett (16:55.576)
Mm.

Lucy Rowett (17:05.102)
Hmm.

Lucy Rowett (17:09.23)
Yeah.

Sally (17:11.388)
kind of play out, but how do you see it play out with your clients and what do you, how do you help them?

Lucy Rowett (17:18.88)
It's a tricky one because I think first of all, people pleasing is something that affects everyone, every gender, and yet women and those socialised as female, that is very much baked into us. It's very much taught and encouraged and celebrated. And so a lot of people don't, some people will realise, yeah, I have a problem with people pleasing. And first of all, they think that it's a them problem.

They think that, God, it's just me. have terrible boundaries. I'm not good at putting myself first. And I sort of saying, but it's not just you. Again, it was taught to you. It was taught to all of us. It was, we are constantly taught and encouraged to and celebrated for putting our needs last, for taking care of everybody else. It's something that also is encouraged in women. It's a very...

Have you read the book Come As You Are by Emily Nagoski? It's a really good book and it was a book where she talks about how desire works and how female sexual desire tends to work. And she said it's like there are two kinds of people in society. There are human beings and human givers. Guess which gender the human givers are. And we also know that

Sally (18:15.996)
No. No, I haven't.

Sally (18:37.927)
Yeah.

Lucy Rowett (18:41.81)
a woman is seen, when a woman is assertive she's seen as bossy in organizations. If a woman isn't always nice and taking care of everybody else and being overly agreeable she's seen as a bitch. So like I was at an event last week, Saturday for Women's Day, with this organization I'm in, and we're talking about, like especially if you're a woman working in a very male-dominated field. And this woman was

One of the women was asking a question saying what do I do? I don't want to cause a fuss I don't want to be I want to be nice about it But also I'm really sick of all these men acting like dicks around me, and I don't know how to call it out so it's expected of women to be nice and When we're not nice we are punished for it in many different ways

Sally (19:22.085)
Mmm.

Sally (19:32.656)
Yeah, even the way that that person's trying to work out how to say it without hurting anyone's feelings is indicative of, you know, the worry, the headspace that that is taking up, you know, the bandwidth that that's taking up. And it really does, doesn't it? Like the things that we worry about anyway, there's more in there that we have to worry about.

Lucy Rowett (19:40.405)
Yeah.

Lucy Rowett (19:47.308)
Yeah.

Lucy Rowett (19:54.709)
I know and-

Lucy Rowett (19:58.83)
Yeah, because it's like, don't want to be seen as a troublemaker because, and I want to say, and that's not just a you worrying problem, that there is that real risk that you will be seen as a troublemaker. So again, it's like when I'm talking about people pleasing, like, yes, there's a lot that we need to do within ourselves, but no, it's not a you problem. It's not something that it's just your fault because of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Sally (20:10.47)
Yeah.

Sally (20:24.944)
Yeah. How does it affect our sex life potentially or our libido when we have that, when we're stuck in that coping strategy?

Lucy Rowett (20:30.168)
Hmm.

Lucy Rowett (20:37.784)
Hmm. So it affects everything. And like, I think on the, like the easiest thing, like when we think about women faking orgasms or faking enjoyment, how many times have you faked enjoyment or pretended you were more into something when you actually weren't? How many times, have you ever faked an orgasm before? And this isn't to shame or judge and say, you should be empowered and always be. Well, there's a reason for that.

in that maybe you wanted to be approved of, you didn't want to upset them, you didn't want to offend them, you didn't want to emasculate them, you didn't want, there's so many things there. And think about especially how many times when you have pretended you've enjoyed something when you didn't really enjoy it, what was the reason for that? Did you not feel safe? Is it maybe there were some awful things that have happened before? Are you worried about rejection?

I mean, within sex and relationships, that's where our deepest attachment stuff can play out. And that fear of being rejected is huge. I'm just gonna adjust myself, because I'm not very good at sitting still. Have a fidget. But also it can show up in really subtle ways that you might not think about with sex. So the simple thing of always being busy.

Sally (21:46.94)
Have a fidget.

Lucy Rowett (22:00.276)
So taking care of everything in the house, of worrying about how people are feeling, always being the problem solver, always being the one that thinks of everything. And we know about the concept of the mental load, where for women we are much more likely to be taking on the mental and emotional responsibilities of taking care of everyone. And think about what that, if you're somebody who always feels tired and you say that you never have any time to yourself,

And there absolutely can be very real things there. But it's also often a pattern of you taking care of everybody else instead of yourself as well. And then when you're constantly run down because of all that overtaking and taking care of everybody else, well then you're not really gonna have much desire for sex. And like the very, yeah, you're completely depleted and the kind of perfect storm is,

Sally (22:49.638)
because you've depleted the reserves.

Lucy Rowett (22:56.834)
You spend all day being busy. You have been doing the housework, you've been working, you've been taking care of the pets and the kids and worrying about everything else. And you go to sit down and your head is just spinning of all the things you need to be doing because very many things. And then you go to bed and your husband rolls over, puts his hand on your breast. Ugh, great. Something else I have to give now.

Sally (23:19.132)
Hmm

Lucy Rowett (23:25.426)
And for a lot of women, I think especially women in menopause and midlife, that's been a pattern where, okay, fine, I will have sex, let's get on with it. And then it can get to a point because you've been having sex that you're not actually enjoying, that you don't really want, where it just feels like, fine, it's another thing to give, take over my body, where that can become a trauma in and of itself.

Sally (23:34.13)
Yeah.

Sally (23:52.708)
in and of itself, yeah.

Lucy Rowett (23:54.86)
and sometimes it can manifest in physical sexual pain.

Sally (24:00.016)
Yeah.

Lucy Rowett (24:00.244)
So that's a really, it's why people pleasing can go very deep. And also I did an interview with someone a few weeks ago who went through her own big, I was gonna say midlife thing, but you know, left her marriage, all the big things. And she said, nobody had ever asked her what it is she liked. Like her ex-husband had never asked her what she liked in bed. It never occurred to her.

what is it that I actually like? What do I like? What pleases me? It's been all about taking care of him and making sure he has a good time and that I'm being a good wife. And then when she left that marriage and had to do all of the inner work because of a health thing as well, that was the first time she really asked herself, what is it that I like? Huh. So yeah, that's...

Sally (24:45.67)
Yeah.

Sally (24:50.842)
Hmm. So interesting. It's so interlinked, isn't it? Our behaviour through the day, the patterns that we bring up from the past. It's all too often that we think to ourselves, yeah, my libido's suffering. How do I raise my libido? How do I lift my libido? I bet you hate that question when people say, how do I raise my libido? You're like, my God.

Lucy Rowett (25:08.278)
Yeah.

Yeah, how do I boost my libido? And it's like, ooh, okay. But there's a lot to unpick there.

Sally (25:19.714)
It's such a deep question, isn't it? And of course there are things we can do like make sure we're hydrated, make sure we're, you know, exercising so that we've got some energy, eating well, all those kind of fundamental basic things, make sure we're getting enough sleep. But it could be a bit of a chicken and egg situation as well, can't it? Like a vicious cycle, go on.

Lucy Rowett (25:26.265)
yeah.

Lucy Rowett (25:31.188)
Yeah.

Lucy Rowett (25:42.122)
It can, and I've seen a lot of your posts where you're saying it's not just your hormones. And it's also not discounting that when you're going through the menopause and if you're having a really rough time and your hormones have just fucked everything over and you feel like a completely different person, I don't ever want to diminish that. Like when you're struggling in your body and your body doesn't feel like yours anymore because of everything.

Sally (25:47.409)
Yes.

Sally (26:07.506)
The whole mind changes, yeah.

Lucy Rowett (26:09.794)
Well of course that's going to be hard to have an interest in sex because I mean I've not been through the metaphors, sometimes I've struggled with my own menstrual cycle. When I'm in that luteal phase and I feel like my skin is crawling out of me, it's harder. It's harder. And it's also when, you know, I've done sessions with women where maybe they want to, if there's a medication they can take or they're trying like a herbal protocol or

go to an acupuncturist and it's why I'm always a little bit skeptical when I see like herbal blends or things that say they help with libido because I'm like it probably won't work it probably won't work because libido isn't something we tend to think of libido as just this urge and sometimes it can be like they're

I'm, if you're listening to this, maybe you're somebody where like, yep, sometimes I've just really had this urge. But it's not just something purely physical. It's, it's emotional. It's mental. It's so many things. It's why I like to refer, there's a really good book by Cindy Darnell called Sex When You Don't Feel Like It. And she talks about what about we, we need to start cultivating desire rather than libido.

Does that make sense?

Sally (27:36.722)
Yeah, yeah. So, is libido then sort of the physic, the physiology of desire and desire is something a bit more ephemeral, a bit more emotional perhaps, a bit more in the nervous system.

Lucy Rowett (27:48.726)
I think so, I mean, well also I think I could be wrong. I don't think I've ever seen like a full scientific medical definition of libido, especially for women because we know that when men can't get a hard on they're more likely to take something like Viagra. But for women, well when we feel desire it's not necessarily just a physical urge or it's not necessarily just a thought and

This is where a lot of women can go wrong per se, because there's this belief that I need to have this urge for sex in order to want to have it to begin with. Desire is something kind of like what you said, it's something we can cultivate. It's something that we can actively do with ourselves. So how can I start to increase my desire? Well, I can work with my body. I can make sure I'm moving my body. I can make sure I'm hydrated and eating enough and sleeping enough. I can also...

do things like read erotica or watch porn or do things that make me feel sexy like going to a burlesque class or doing some essential massage. Just moving my hands like this. Doing some essential massage. I love the quote by Esther Perel where she says she gets couples to complete the question, I turn myself on when. I turn myself off when.

Sally (29:17.444)
yeah that's deep isn't it? It's such deep work and it really links back to this idea of being in charge of your own eroticism.

Lucy Rowett (29:18.156)
Yeah. Yeah.

Sally (29:26.876)
think that's something that she talks about as well, this idea of eroticism. really don't like that word, libido. Now we're talking about it. I much prefer the word desire, eroticism, arousal. Libido just makes me think of testosterone and like slapping some testosterone on.

Lucy Rowett (29:27.124)
Yeah.

Lucy Rowett (29:35.245)
Hmm.

Lucy Rowett (29:39.052)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Ha ha ha!

Lucy Rowett (29:50.734)
Also like, Cindy Arnell, said it's like, to paraphrase, it's like waiting for your libido is a very unreliable marker of great sex because, okay, maybe something might happen where you feel a spontaneous urge for sex. That's great. But I use this analogy. It's like trying to launch a successful business by waiting to win the lottery or waiting for an inheritance. Could happen.

That's great, not saying it might not happen, but why not create a detailed business plan? Why not take actionable steps that you know are more likely to get there? And like sometimes, whoopsie, got my cable hanging down here. Sometimes for women, have you heard of the concept of responsive desire versus spontaneous desire?

Sally (30:36.436)
you

Sally (30:44.24)
Yeah, I learnt it from one of your social media posts actually.

Lucy Rowett (30:47.478)
yay! It's in the book Come As You Are by Emily Nagoski and it's the idea that as humans, this is just one model and I think this research comes from the Kinsey Institute and it's the idea that as humans we can, spontaneous desire is where it just appears. Where yep, I'm feeling horny right now. Yep, I want to jump on my husband or my wife right now.

And then there's responsive desire, which is when we kind of erupt this, just feeling normal, just everyday life, nothing going on here. And then your partner starts to kiss you and they start to touch you and you're like, okay, okay, then I'm into that. And a lot of women kind of can accidentally block themselves by thinking, well, I only enjoy sex when I'm into it.

Like, I don't really have any desire, but when my husband starts to kiss me, then I'm enjoying it. I'm saying, but that's normal. That's how desire can work. And it can take a lot of the shame and shudding off it, where women are expecting or thinking that I should just be this walking horny monster, rather than, well, I think I've lost my train of thought there. But yeah.

Sally (32:08.954)
Yeah, rather than allowing it to emerge through sort of, you know, one person brings something and then you bring something and then they bring something and then you bring something. And so it's this brick by brick approach rather than bang, there's the cathedral. It's like, yeah, it's brick by brick.

Lucy Rowett (32:21.536)
Yeah.

Lucy Rowett (32:25.197)
Yeah.

Lucy Rowett (32:29.009)
Yeah, I know. it is. And it's like, I often like to think of it as like deconstructing what we think of as sex and sexuality. no, there's another, I'm trying to think which model because there's a few different models of desire that are really helpful. It could be the Busan model or something else. And it's the idea that

Sally (32:40.902)
Mm-hmm.

Lucy Rowett (32:55.916)
for great sex to happen you don't necessarily have to feel horny there just needs to be a willingness there. Like not feeling particularly horny right now but I'm really open to seeing what happens and knowing that we don't I think for a lot of women you can really kind of dig yourself into a hole thinking well I can't have sex unless I'm feeling horny but I never feel horny so then there's something wrong with me rather than well hornyness can come and go.

You don't actually need to feel horny to have great sex.

Sally (33:29.136)
What about the ick factor? You know, we go through, I don't know if you've ever come across this in any of your clients, we go through these sort of phases with our partners where we fancy them one minute and then we don't fancy them the next, but you know, we're not gonna leave a marriage or a relationship because all of a sudden we're like, God, I really hate the way he does this or she does this. Is there...

Lucy Rowett (33:31.864)
Hmm.

Lucy Rowett (33:46.702)
Yeah.

Lucy Rowett (33:55.201)
Yeah.

Sally (33:57.626)
Is there a hack for the ick factor?

Lucy Rowett (33:59.918)
hang on let me adjust myself again. I need a shuffle that's a good one. I think first of all...

Sally (34:02.738)
Yeah, I need to shuffle as well.

Lucy Rowett (34:13.78)
Explore what the triggers are for when the ick factor happens. Like is it something that's happening regularly? Is it something that happens once in a blue moon? Is it something that happens when they do something in particular? I think first of all kind of normalizing that it's okay to sometimes be really turned off by your partner because there's this overlying message that when we love someone and either we're married or in a long-term partnership

Sally (34:18.204)
Mm-hmm.

Lucy Rowett (34:43.554)
that when we love them, that also means we should always be attracted to them. And when we stop being attracted to them, that is a very bad, dangerous thing. means I no longer love them. So first of all, getting clear on how often does this happen? Are there certain conditions for it happening? Is it something they do? Is it something within you? And...

Sally (35:06.17)
Is it a mood maybe that you're in? Maybe you're really stressed and uptight or something? Yeah.

Lucy Rowett (35:09.676)
Yeah. Is it a mood thing? Is it a pattern that I'm noticing within myself? Because when you say the ick factor, I was just thinking, me and my husband, we like watching Married at First Sight Australia, which is so bad. It's so bad. You know, like it's trash TV and all the things. And like, there's, I think this season, there's a guy called Elliot, and we know that the edit changes how people are seen.

Sally (35:24.73)
Love it.

Lucy Rowett (35:39.278)
and he has a whole list of Ix. And then like a few years ago, there was another participant called Jessie who also had a long list of Ix. And of course, again, you know, the way it's edited, they're edited in a certain way. But as the viewer, you can see, I don't know how many of these Ix are actually a you problem, are actually a you, how much of that is fear of, you know, fear of, fear of attachment, fear of intimacy, fear of being hurt, all of these things.

Sally (35:47.666)
You

Sally (35:59.26)
Yeah.

Sally (36:07.346)
perfectionism as well, which comes into it a lot, doesn't it? Especially with, you know, like OCD tendencies, OCD style behaviors can play into perfectionism, which again has an original primary trauma that will have happened.

Lucy Rowett (36:08.706)
Perfectionism.

Lucy Rowett (36:14.25)
Yeah. Yeah.

Lucy Rowett (36:24.014)
Exactly, and there is a thing called relationship anxiety, relationship OCD. And so again, really get curious with the icks that you're having. How often is this happening? Is it in response to certain things? I want to say is it a you thing or is it a them thing? Might be both, because maybe it is a thing where maybe their personal hygiene isn't great. There are some things that are completely okay to be icked out on if they're personal hygiene.

Sally (36:51.014)
Right.

Lucy Rowett (36:52.398)
If they're leaving skid marks, you know, I would be icked by that. You know, or like if they're wanting to have sex with you and they haven't showered, if they want you to give them the blowjob when they haven't washed themselves, that's completely okay to be icked out on. Unless that turns you on. There are some people where body smells, yes. So yeah, really think about that. Is the ick purely physical? Like,

Again, I don't like the term, someone's let themselves go. I don't like that term. But maybe, I was gonna say, I'm thinking in heterosexual dynamics, but it doesn't have to be. If your partner is having a spell of bad mental health, or where they are in depression, but they're not able to see it, and they're sitting on the sofa all day complaining about everything, not.

taking care of themselves, not washing, and you're feeling icked out by that, that could be a very healthy and normal thing to be icked out by.

Sally (37:57.392)
Yeah. Yeah.

Lucy Rowett (38:00.256)
So again, maybe for the ick factor, feeling into what's behind it, what's triggering it.

Sally (38:05.572)
Yeah, again going a little bit deeper rather than just looking for those quick fix solutions. Yeah, so important. I think with anything relational, it's not going to be a supplement. It's not going to be necessarily a hormone. Sometimes hormones do help people for sure. Hmm, really can.

Lucy Rowett (38:11.927)
Yeah.

Lucy Rowett (38:16.109)
Yeah.

Lucy Rowett (38:22.83)
it can, yeah. I don't ever want to under emphasize that hormones can really affect everything. Hmm.

Sally (38:30.928)
Yeah, definitely. So let's get on to, let's start to conclude this conversation by speaking to how we find our sexual self, our new sexual identity as we go into post-menopause. Because I know that there are not a lot of positive representations in the media. I think it's changing. I think it's changing. Maybe it's just Netflix showing me more.

Lucy Rowett (38:50.488)
Hmm.

Lucy Rowett (38:58.008)
Yeah.

Sally (39:00.846)
age-related stuff. But yeah, how do we move into, how do we feel better about our sexual identity as post-menopausal people?

Lucy Rowett (39:13.528)
So I kind of think you nailed the first one. I think role models do play a big role and it is tricky depending on where you are, depending on what you have access to. And maybe it's you need to be that role model. The doors just, I can see the cats just walked in.

Sally (39:19.141)
Bye.

Sally (39:28.978)
he's welcome or she, I don't know.

Lucy Rowett (39:33.864)
She, yeah, I do leave the door open and crack for her to come in, but obviously she's just gone. Nope. Anyway, hello baby. So, yeah, did you hear that? Yeah. Let me just move my glass so she doesn't whack that over. So, I think role models are important.

Sally (39:44.327)
Yeah, it was cute.

Sally (39:58.354)
Mm-hmm.

Lucy Rowett (39:58.506)
And luckily now because of like this generation of menopausal women and menopausal people who are like, yeah, we haven't had any representation. No, we refuse to be silent. No, we refuse to be invisible. Really, I'd say deliberately search them out if you can, because sometimes actually seeing somebody else, it can give you that permission and it can be through Netflix series. It can be through people on Instagram. They're like, there's a sex.

Sally (40:19.986)
Hmm.

Lucy Rowett (40:26.648)
therapist or coach called Joan Price who talks about aging and sexuality. There are loads of people around even if you like Google sex and aging or sexy aging, there are so many people that I know online who are talking about it. There are podcasts, I know there are people doing podcasts about it because that can start to help change that narrative in your brain that...

Sally (40:44.636)
Yeah.

Lucy Rowett (40:51.326)
I am allowed to be and I am an erotic and sexy being even though my body is different now. I think the second would be...

Sally (40:57.596)
Yeah.

Lucy Rowett (41:03.83)
starting to reframe how you think about your body. I think in particular that we know that as a society we see menopause of women, menopausal people as invisible, over the hill, no longer desirable. I'd really look for ways to reframe that for yourself. Like I know that for a lot of, we know that women and people going through the menopause tend to initiate either leaving relationships or marriages, especially during the menopause, because that's when they...

really realise I have no fucks to give anymore. I've been spending all of my time pleasing in this relationship or marriage. And as much as there can be a lot of stuff around how the menopause can make you lose your libido, I've also heard a lot of things where women say, actually I'm the horniest I've ever been. I'm actually in my peak because I actually don't care as much anymore. I don't care what I look like as much. I'm not hung up over my belly and my breasts. I'm not

worrying about not being skinny, I actually care less and because I care less I'm able to enjoy my body so much more. Can you orient to that more? Can you start to reframe that actually first of all there's no such thing as a sexual peak but if there was I know that it tends to be older in women and people assigned female at birth because we start to care less and isn't that great?

Sally (42:10.962)
Mm.

Sally (42:28.464)
Mmm. Yeah.

Lucy Rowett (42:31.914)
especially and this might sound glib in terms of reframing everything negative as a positive I don't ever want to bypass especially if you have something like vaginal dryness or vaginal atrophy and what if this could be an invitation to explore sexuality, pleasure, intimacy outside of penis and vagina sex because you will soon realise that there is so much more available.

so much more pleasure available than just penis and vagina sucks.

Sally (43:05.446)
Hmm. Yeah, very different way of making love, very different way of expressing sexuality that perhaps we're not used to seeing. We think of sex as penis in vagina, but it, you know, there's so many different ways of expressing sex.

Lucy Rowett (43:13.804)
Yeah.

Lucy Rowett (43:20.44)
Yeah.

Sally (43:24.912)
And it comes down to you do you, you you find what works for you. You find your authentic self in that version of how you're expressing it and like really own it.

Lucy Rowett (43:33.357)
Yeah.

Yeah, and again, like, if you can find, I was gonna say groups, TV shows, because I know there are people out there, I would love to, I'm sure there are specifically sex positive groups and courses and programmes specifically for women and people going through the menopause, because it's gonna help change that narrative in your head. Like I was listening to podcast by someone called Kara Lowentile ages ago.

and she's a life coach and she is a larger woman. And she said that one way in which she helped to rewire how she thought about her body was on social media. She deliberately unfollowed any accounts that showed skinny people or people who are very slim. And that meant that over time her algorithm was only showing her larger bodied people. And so it started to become her new norm of how she thought about herself, how she felt about herself.

Can you do that the same with people going through the menopause and sexuality? It could be literally on your Instagram or whatever social media you use, unfollowing a lot of people and deliberately following or looking for people accounts that talk about really sexy older women and older people.

Sally (44:54.45)
Yeah, and how other people are feeling sexual and aroused. Because I think that can be really useful, can't it? Like, if we're feeling a bit lackluster in that department, but we spend time with other people who are of a similar age, they're having great sex, or they're not in relationships, but they're pleasuring themselves and they're just having like a really great time with themselves. That, by proxy...

Lucy Rowett (45:19.352)
Yeah, just to have it normalised. some, I know, and also sometimes that could be, that could replace years of therapy just to hear another older woman, older person saying, yeah, I am masturbated all afternoon, it was great, I've never given myself so many orgasms. And to look at them and think, well, if they're doing that, then, then I can do it too, okay.

Sally (45:22.296)
Yeah, it can be a turn on by proxy.

Sally (45:42.833)
Yeah.

Yeah, it's that modeling, it's how we learn, isn't it, through modeling. So yeah, it just comes back to that. Well, that's been an amazing conversation, Lucy. Thank you so much for bringing all your wisdom. Now, I'm sure there will be people who are listening to this going, she sounds like someone I really need to have in my life right now. If people have been inspired by you, can you let us know how people work with you?

Lucy Rowett (45:48.472)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Lucy Rowett (45:55.31)
Yay!

Lucy Rowett (46:06.882)
Yay!

Sally (46:14.652)
What offerings do you have?

Lucy Rowett (46:17.102)
Fabulous, so if this sounds good to you, do get in touch so you can find me on my website, lucyrowert.com. Do check out my podcast, it's on Spotify and Apple. I'll probably move it to other channels as well. It's called The Naked and Unashamed Life. So working together, we can either book a one-off session or we can work together for six months. I like to work with women or people with ovaries for six months because it gives us a really long time to go deep into the process.

I have a program called the Liberated Program and it's a way to really uncover your eroticism and your erotic blocks. I also have a new group program coming up on April 22nd, I think, I need to check, but it's coming up mid to late April and it's called Body Bliss. And this will be a shorter nine week experience for women and people with vulvas to uncover the bliss within our bodies and get to know our pleasure, explore our pleasure with different ways.

We'll be using elements from Neotantra, Taoism, all these different ways for you to reframe or rewire how you relate to your body and it's especially for you if your body's changed or you feel that you've lost your sexual spark, whether it's a menopause, whether it's motherhood, whether it's illness, divorce, bereavement, or just, I feel in a really frumpy rut and I want to feel sexy again, which is completely valid, especially in these times.

So I'll give, I'll put all the links, I'll send them over, link will be in the show notes. Contact me through my website, through Instagram. If you have any questions or feedback, do let me know.

Sally (47:52.152)
Amazing, sounds really worthwhile. So yeah, thank you Lucy. You're very active on, is it Instagram mainly?

Lucy Rowett (48:02.43)
Yes, Facebook and Substack now as well. Yeah, I'm trying to start migrating off the meta, not off the meta platforms, but diversifying from meta. Yeah, and yeah, I really enjoy Substack. I like long form writing. On Substack, am Lucy Rowitt or The Shameless Woman.

Sally (48:06.204)
woo.

Sally (48:16.21)
I hear ya sister, I hear ya.

Sally (48:29.02)
And is that a paid subscription?

Lucy Rowett (48:32.136)
not now. For now it's free. I mean, Substack is free to use. It's free for anyone to use. If you have a publication, you can charge for it. For now, mine's free.

Sally (48:33.106)
Okay, okay, okay, amazing.

Sally (48:43.836)
Gotcha. Yeah, that makes sense. Well, thank you so much, Lucy. I think that's been such an amazing conversation and yeah. you're very welcome, my love. Take care.

Lucy Rowett (48:51.33)
Thank you so much for having me Sally, this has been so fun.

Bye.