185 Strategic Rest with Chloe Stephens

Chloe Stephens, known as the Flow Coach and today she shares her extensive journey in fitness and wellness over the past 30 years. And in this conversation, we talk about:

🌱 The Concept of Flow Coaching

🌱 Holistic Wellness and Menopause

🌱 Understanding Strategic Rest

🌱 Physical vs. Mental Rest

🌱 Shifts in Perception Around Rest

🌱 Balancing Exercise and Recovery

🌱 Factors Affecting Recovery

🌱 Navigating Menopause: Personal Experiences and Insights

🌱 Understanding Rest: Misconceptions and Realities

🌱 Sleep Strategies: Tips for Better Rest

🌱 The Power of Micro Changes: Small Steps to Recovery

So if you’re ready to be educated and inspired, tune in now.

DM me for the link or see link in bio.

Chloe’s Links:

Website: www.coachchloe.uk

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chloestephenstheflowcoach/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/the_flow_coach/ 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/chloe.stephens.74 

Sally's Links:

[Free Guide] Healing The Trauma Underlying Your Menopause Symptom Severity:  https://www.sallygarozzo.com/healingtraumatheguide

[On Demand Masterclass 2 hours] How To Heal The Trauma Underlying Your Menopause Symptom Severity [£17] https://www.sallygarozzo.com/healingtrauma

[On Demand Workshop] Redefine Your Values at Menopause and Live Life in Alignment With Them [£27] https://www.sallygarozzo.com/redefine 

[Online Practitioners Diploma - Self Paced] Menopause Wellbeing Practitioner [£127] https://www.sallygarozzo.com/meno

[One to One] Transformational 30 Day Rewire (Includes RTT) [£447]: https://www.sallygarozzo.com/rapid-transformational-therapist

Instagram:  https://www.instagram.com/sallygarozzomindmentor

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sallygarozzo/

Send me a voice clip via What’s App - https://wa.me/message/FTARBMO7CRLEL1

Transcript

Sally (00:01.496)
So my guest today is Chloe Stevens. Chloe is known as the Flow Coach and has had a transformative 30 year career in fitness and wellbeing. As a pioneer in holistic wellness, Chloe specializes in teaching the crucial yet often overlooked art of strategic rest.

She helps individuals unlock their potential by demonstrating how purposeful rest acts as a catalyst for both physical and mental growth. So Chloe, hello, lovely, how you doing?

Chloe Stephens (00:43.095)
I'm really good thank you, how are you?

Sally (00:45.248)
I'm good, thank you. We're just having a chat about jet lag, aren't we?

Chloe Stephens (00:49.521)
We were, yes, because I'm just.

Sally (00:51.212)
because you came back from New Zealand and had a horrendous time getting your circadian rhythms back.

Chloe Stephens (00:58.713)
I mean, if you'd have asked me two weeks ago, when are you going back to New Zealand? I would have just said, no way. I was just, it was like my inner ear had had a bit of wibbly wobbliness going on within it. Sleep was like I had a tiny baby. was awake about six times in the night. And as a result, I was even feeling anxious. It was just not fun.

Sally (01:12.59)
Mm.

Sally (01:23.242)
I suppose it just goes to show how powerful our circadian rhythms are in terms of like, you know, how important light is, how important it is, the time that we eat and how that affects every single process in our body. It's mad.

Chloe Stephens (01:42.449)
It's insane, isn't it? And yet we see so many people going, can deal with a three or four hour sleep a night. And I just think, wow, how do you do that?

Sally (01:50.744)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, not for me. Anyway, total digression, hello and welcome. So basically you have had a 30 year career in fitness and wellbeing, which is huge. Can you tell us a little bit about your journey in, you know, how it sort of unfolded and what led you to becoming the Flow Coach and what is the Flow Coach as well? What does it mean?

Chloe Stephens (02:22.321)
Okay, so I can't quite believe it's been 30 years actually, you know, I think when we get to 50, I think you're just turning 50 as well. Yeah, yeah, I turned 50 last year. I can't actually believe like, where did those 30 years go? But, you know, I started way back in, I was 20 years old, I had a three year old little boy, I was a single mom. And I'd just been working in catering before I got into fitness. But I tried an aerobics class and

Sally (02:28.846)
Yeah, yeah.

Chloe Stephens (02:51.915)
loved it. And I think my mum said to me like, you could teach this. So it was a little seed planted and I did my training went up to London and did the two week intensive course at London Central YMCA, became an aerobics instructor did aqua, know, weights, all those things. And then I moved into Pilates, which I still teach now, a couple of times a week. And, and then I moved into

learning more about nutrition. So I was running a boot camp where I used to live, an outdoor boot camp. This is probably about 12 years ago now. And that was great because I was helping people to not only lose weight, but to get more energy, to sleep better, all those kinds of things. However, the nutrition we were handing out to them, it was a franchise and I wasn't aligned with it. I believe that it was too strict. So I eventually moved away from that and started studying.

more like behavior change, habit change, because I believe that that is really the key to, you know, any lasting change. Anybody can follow a plan for a little while, but keeping it going for longer is you need a bit of consistency and need to work on the mind. So that's when I delved into NLP, did my master practitioner as well, studied the art of sleep and

and recovery. And more recently, I've just finished my root cause therapy, which is all around breaking limiting beliefs and rewiring, you know, subconscious, which I know you know all about as well. That's me. That's me in a nutshell, you know, but I suppose all of those facets have helped me to step into

Sally (04:35.278)
Just a bit. Yeah.

Chloe Stephens (04:50.541)
my newest sort of brand, which is the Flow Coach, because what I was finding was that there's so many fitness trainers out there. There's so many people teaching fat loss and teaching exercise. And I believe that what I do differently is I really help people to find their unique flow because we're all so different, you know, and I was noticing that

You know, some people need more help with mindset. Some people need more help with nutrition. Some people just need support in somebody to listen to them so they can actually unfold what's really going on inside them so that they can then create changes. So my sort of acronym for flow, I believe that being in flow is, well, to me, it just feels

effortless. It's like when I forget to look at my phone, it's when I am just doing something and I'm just in the moment. And I think that many people have lost that, especially since COVID, we're all just switched on. But the acronym for me is I help people to feel their life open wider.

Sally (06:07.243)
wow, I like that.

Chloe Stephens (06:09.177)
You know, so, and I just think that when I say that to people, well, what did you, when I said that, what would that envisage for you? know, what

Sally (06:19.854)
So for me, I felt more limitless, I felt more expanded, I felt like tapped into more potential, just a sense of openness, like I'm being able to sort of dial into what's right for me, like my authentic self, making choices that are right for me. So yeah, loads came up when you said that. What was it? Feel?

Chloe Stephens (06:44.527)
Feel your life open wider.

Sally (06:47.054)
Feel your life open wider. Yeah, yeah. So you're less limited, because I think that can happen, can't it? When we tuned into a negative mindset, we tune out from possibilities, and we can't actually see past. We can't see beyond our own limited perspective. And I think when you get someone else that comes in,

Chloe Stephens (07:12.4)
Yeah.

Sally (07:16.47)
to help facilitate change, you start to step out of your limited mindset and you start to see more possibilities open up to you. You start to feel so much better because you've unlocked yourself. You're like, there is hope.

Chloe Stephens (07:29.997)
Yeah, yeah. I really believe that, you know, many of the people I work with and many of the people just I speak to, and I'm sure you get this as well, is that people, many people at the moment are just, they're stuck. There's just a lot, there's a lot going on in the world. There's a lot going on in the news, the media, know, cost of living crisis, all these things. And yeah, they feel closed in. So by helping them just to...

It's a real cliche, unlocking, just seeing that vision just get a little bit bigger. They can almost take the blinkers off and just think, there is more. I can feel differently.

Sally (08:10.476)
Yeah, it's coming out of survival mode, isn't it? Because I think when we're so engrossed in the news and the media and what's going on, and even if we're not, like even just looking at social media, we can just be so limited in our point of view. And I think we do need help just stepping out of it, which is where you come in. So I love that definition. Thank you for sharing that. It's really cool. OK, so next question. How do you define

holistic wellness and why is it specifically important for women navigating the menopause transition to think about think about themselves holistically?

Chloe Stephens (08:56.153)
Yeah, amazing question. So thank you. But I think that, I mean, I'm speaking from experience and also from people that I've worked with in the past, and of course, friends who all around the same age, is that what worked when we were 20, 30 is not going to be working the same now because we've evolved. You we're in our second spring. And with that,

it isn't enough anymore to just move or to just be on another diet because we are whole beings, we need to look at. We've mentioned circadian rhythm, we've mentioned sleep. Relaxing is just, I think it's one of the major things that women, anybody over 50, needs to be.

thinking about and practicing regularly. Because without that, you talked about being in a state of survival mode. You know, you're in a permanent state of fight or flight. And with that comes not only feelings in your body, but you know, lowered immune system, reduced gut health. So holistic wellness for me is just looking at a 360 view of what

what we can do. And I think maybe sometimes think people believe that the word holistic sounds a bit, you know, in inverted commas, fluffy. But I believe that it's the only way we need to be looking at our brain and our body and our environment and our thoughts. You it's like having the pieces of a jigsaw. And if there's one bit missing, something's going to be off.

Sally (10:55.084)
Yeah, something's going to be out of balance. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So tell me more about rest. Tell me more about what does strategic rest actually mean and what is it doing for us?

when we take the time because so many people, I know myself included, sometimes I don't give myself permission to rest, sometimes I think I haven't got time to rest, sometimes when I do rest, I'm restless and I'm agitated and I'm like, can't rest, I've got way too much to do. So tell us more about how we can overcome those blocks and barriers to rest and what strategic rest actually is.

Chloe Stephens (11:13.039)
Yeah.

Chloe Stephens (11:38.829)
Yes, so strategic rest, strategic recovery, whatever you want to think of it as, I believe is just actually creating some regular time and some regular rituals that supports everything that's going on in our lives. You know, I mentioned the COVID word again, I just think since then, everybody is permanently plugged into their phone. They're having notifications right, left and center.

Maybe they're caring for parents, they've got children, they've got... And of course their body is changing as well with all the... We won't go too much into the hormones at the moment, but you know, in menopause they're going to be all over the place and I think that having that strategic recovery, that strategic rest, encourages your body to have a little bit of rest and digest. So that we're not constantly like a coiled spring because...

Like you said, know, sometimes, and I'm the same, I'll, you know, sit down and think, I need to just chill out for a minute. But yet all I can hear is, you know, the to-do list rolling over in my mind or, and then thinking about a conversation I had yesterday and it's like, you know, a hundred tabs open at once. But, so I think that strategically it's, you know, how can we...

make sure that those rituals are as important, if not more important, as doing the busy stuff. You know, so for myself, and what I encourage when I'm working with people is, you know, imagine if at the beginning of every day, you spent two minutes, even just two minutes to begin with, just checking in with your breath. Okay, how am I feeling at the moment?

And then once that's built up, it's like, okay, could you do that at the end of your day? And especially if people are in busy jobs, entrepreneurial, or they're in a corporate role where they've got meetings back to back, it's like, what sort of boundaries could you create around those meetings so that you can just, even as little as getting up from your desk and just doing a little bit of a meditation, a little bit of a switch off, a little bit of just...

Chloe Stephens (14:01.145)
changing your body so that you're then changing your brain chemistry. But I think, you know, it's been proven that people just sitting at their desk for a long time doesn't do our body or our brains any favors.

Sally (14:15.502)
And zipping around here there and everywhere.

rushing, we forget things, don't we? There really are a lot of benefits to just taking some time out and to resting in terms of like, you know, extra brain clarity, greater repair on our muscles, our fascia, better immunity, better nervous system regulation. You know, the more we, the more we wire in the ability to rest, the easier it is for us to switch into rest.

Chloe Stephens (14:46.385)
100 % yeah.

Sally (14:47.904)
Yeah, definitely. I remember working with a client who was so fearful of absolutely everything that even when I, she couldn't have a hypnotherapy session with me because, you know, so terrified of anything to do with going deeper and relaxing. I gave her a sort of tailor-made relaxation hypnosis recording specifically for her. And even then,

you know, even though it was like really titrated, she would get, she would go into this panic around, my God, I'm, I'm, I'm letting go. want to, but I can't, you know? So there was this real push me, pull you.

going on in her nervous system and her brain. But eventually we got to a point where she felt safe to relax enough to listen to the recording without being jolted. I think they call it hypnagogic jerks. Don't know you've ever experienced that where you're trying to relax and your nervous system goes, this is not safe and it wakes you up. It's like a bolt of electricity going through your system. Have you experienced that?

Chloe Stephens (15:56.209)
I have definitely had that, especially I think, you know, when you're like falling asleep and you're in between like awake and asleep, it's almost like you're falling and it's like, okay, what happened there?

Sally (16:11.68)
Mad, isn't it?

Chloe Stephens (16:13.963)
bodies are fascinating but a little bit scary at times as well.

Sally (16:17.486)
Yeah, especially when we don't know what's going on. think if we do know, like when I told my client, you know, this is why, she relaxed a bit more into it because she was able to go, okay, the reason that my heart rate's going up here is because it thinks relaxing is dangerous, but I can just sort of reassure myself that it's okay and just kind of push through into it a little bit.

Chloe Stephens (16:42.201)
Yeah, it's interesting you say that and many people I work with, one of the first things I say to them on our initial call is, know, what do you do to just relax, to just be? And often I get the answer, well, you know, I'll watch TV or, you know, I just lay on the sofa looking at my phone, you know, it's like we've lost the art of just being.

You know, I know from following you on social media that you, like me, you you love going out for a walk. And because I've learned, and I'm sure you have as well, is that if I'm in a stressful situation, and I think that stress is misunderstood as well, because I think that we don't always feel stressed, but like, say you're trying to solve a problem or you're on your tech and something isn't quite right, I used to just sit and stare at my screen for hours thinking, how's this going to...

fix itself or just get more and more like a cold spring. But now I've learned that, you know, after two minutes of trying to fix it, it's like, okay, shut the laptop, get outside. And that act of just moving your body changes your state. And, and obviously you're not looking at a phone, you're just being, silence, nature, air. And that, and that again is a form of strategic rest, you know, because you're

you're recognising what I'm doing is not happening. So stop and just move on and invariably come back to your desk and say, I can fix that now.

Sally (18:17.708)
Yeah, because you've changed the energy. It's all about the energy when we get hyper fixated on the problem. We just see more and more of the problem and we just need to get up. I think that's why tea is so helpful, isn't it? Making a cup of tea. I've got about nine cups of tea by the end of the day, nine cups that need to go in the dishwasher.

Chloe Stephens (18:32.037)
Yes.

Chloe Stephens (18:39.381)
I try and use the same one every time.

Sally (18:42.436)
that's a good shout. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So is there a difference then between physical rest and mental rest?

Chloe Stephens (18:54.641)
For sure. Yeah, I mean, I think that, I think the thing is when people are in that state of...

Sally (18:56.43)
Hmm.

Chloe Stephens (19:05.966)
you know, feeling hyper, feeling stressed, actually for them to just lay down and be still is not ideal because often they might just fall asleep, which is sort of counterintuitive to what we want. Whereas I think that, I think we need to have a mixture of them all, you know, we need to have time to let our brains just decompress as much as our bodies. But I think the thing is that

I think when we're looking to make a change, everybody looks at it as being like, we've got to find all this time to do this thing. And I really believe that it's it's micro moments. It's recognising in that time, like, I can feel my heart's beating a bit faster than usual. I can feel that maybe my jaw's a bit tight. Okay, what do I need in this moment? I need to go and just put my head out the window and just breathe.

Sally (19:48.29)
Yeah.

Chloe Stephens (20:03.278)
And that is almost enough to begin with just to bring you back into like a little bit of recovery.

Sally (20:11.19)
Yeah, so it's having that mindful awareness of where your body's at, where your brain is at, where your mind is at, checking in to those constant check-ins and going, right, what do I need to facilitate a little bit more wellness right now? Do I need a brain break? I, sometimes I'll just go and lay face down on the floor in the front room. And I find five minutes of that incredibly grounding.

Chloe Stephens (20:27.652)
Yeah.

Chloe Stephens (20:41.605)
Yeah.

Sally (20:42.092)
you know, particularly face down. I don't know what it is. Maybe it's like, you know, it's almost like when you put a weighted blanket over you, there's that compression on your chest.

Chloe Stephens (20:52.783)
Well, talking of blankets, this is my new favourite thing. Look, it's a weighted scarf.

Sally (20:57.518)
That's nice.

Chloe Stephens (21:01.883)
So I took it on my trip to New Zealand. So was a little bit nervous about flying and I went to a networking event and this guy said to me, put this on. He didn't know I was feeling nervous, but he said, put this on. And I sat there and it was like, that feels good. So this is my, yeah, my new little gadget that I just have on me all the time.

Sally (21:26.454)
I love that. A little hack. A little hack into wellness. Okay, so that's good. Have you seen in your long career, over 30 years in the health and wellness and fitness industry, have you seen any shifts in perception around rest and recovery?

Chloe Stephens (21:27.781)
Yeah.

Chloe Stephens (21:53.869)
I think that in the last few years, there's been huge shifts. I think that if we look back to, was it like the, maybe 10, 15 years ago, it was all about, you know, just pushing, smashing, driving, you know, well, you've got to do as much as you can. But I really think that, you know, the recovery part, the rest is more important than the pushing. You know, I think that...

Yeah, I think there have been huge shifts and I believe that I think the fitness industry especially is shifting in that more people are understanding that, you know, rest days are where the magic happens really. You you wouldn't go to the gym every single day because one, you'd be sore, but also those tiny tears in the muscle happen when we train. And then on the day after, that's when the muscles actually start to grow.

Sally (22:39.842)
Hmm.

Chloe Stephens (22:54.287)
And it's the same with, you know, I like to use the equation of like stress, which is what exercise is, plus recovery equals growth. You know, yes. Yeah. And I think that, I think the industry is definitely changing. And we think, I think, especially, you know, with us over 50s, nearing 50 and over, there's been a huge shift in, that mentality of, of what, what we need.

Sally (23:03.85)
Okay, that's a good, very good formula, yeah.

Chloe Stephens (23:23.715)
and what's necessary.

Sally (23:26.86)
Yeah, it's just not sustainable, is it, to just keep exercising, keep exercising. Even for me, when I was going to the gym, I was sort of lifting twice a week. Even that felt quite a lot to my system, because in between I was doing yoga, sometimes power yoga, sometimes walking, sometimes jogging or a bit of cardio. So it'd be like everyday something and...

Yeah, it just got to a point where my body kind of gave up and it was like, you know, no, you can't do this. So I do have to exercise a lot more mindfully now and take a lot more rest days, which can be frustrating when there's a strong part of you that wants to keep going, keep going, keep going. So how do you balance that within people? Like some clients that you see, do you ever see that dynamic where they want to keep going, but they know they've got to stop?

Chloe Stephens (24:23.729)
Yeah, I do see that and I recognize that in myself the way you do as well. I think it was about three years ago I did a bodybuilding competition just to try and prove to myself I could do it at the age of 47, which I did. But even then, three years ago, I was noticing that I couldn't do the weights and the cardio on the same day. Because if I did that, the next day I was like a walking zombie. So I know myself now that I need a day off in between

weight sessions, I can't do back to back. And I think, so when I can see that in somebody else, I just try and get them to consider, okay, what do you think's going on? Why do you think you didn't sleep so well? Why do you think that you've got another cold? Because I think that lots of people don't understand that the stress and strain they put on their body through overtraining more than their body.

likes can lead to a weakness in your immune system. And if you're repeatedly getting colds or also, don't know if you felt this, but you if you're training in the gym and you're always sore, that's not a good sign. It's a sign that your body's saying, I'm a little bit inflamed here. So I try not to prescribe people what to do, but I'd rather try and ask them the question, know, what do you think's happening? Because when we get

You know, when we get really honest with ourselves and listen to our intuition, it's like, we know what's happening. We know why we're not feeling so great usually.

Sally (26:04.61)
What stops people from recovering properly? Like their muscles recovering from weightlifting sessions? Aside from not having enough rest, is there anything else that stops people from recovering quickly?

Chloe Stephens (26:20.145)
I would say potentially what they're eating could have an impact. If they're not sleeping well, hydration, it could be any number of those things and inflammation, know, stress levels.

Sally (26:33.718)
Yeah, it's a big one, isn't it? Inflammation.

Sally (26:42.114)
Yeah.

Chloe Stephens (26:43.951)
So yeah.

Sally (26:44.782)
Yeah, so much. And it's actually interesting, I had a bit of a light bulb moment there when you were talking about the cold, because last year I actually caught quite a lot of colds, and that's what, yeah, and I had a lot of, I had oral thrush, and I didn't catch oral thrush, just be clear. It was, I think it was really to do with having so much mucus in my body and my candida not being great.

Chloe Stephens (26:54.203)
Did you?

Sally (27:13.644)
Yeah, I think I had like three colds really, really quickly. And when I look back, I was doing a lot of training this year. My training has been really balanced. Yes, I've put weight on, but it's not the end of the world. think people place too much emphasis on weight being this big evil thing, but I feel so much healthier. I've had more energy. I've had no colds this year at all since this time last year.

Chloe Stephens (27:41.273)
Yeah, can we touch some wood please?

Sally (27:43.694)
Yeah, I'll just go into my head because oh yeah it's a bit of MDF that'll do. Yeah so it could be related.

Chloe Stephens (27:57.137)
100%. I mean, well, I'm not qualified to recommend, prescribe things to people. However, one of my friends, her dad is the oldest serving medical herbalist in Scotland. He's about 93. He's an absolute powerhouse. He's amazing. And he introduced me to a herbal supplement called Andrographis.

Sally (27:58.478)
Mm.

Sally (28:06.029)
Yeah.

Sally (28:14.149)
really?

Sally (28:18.946)
Yeah.

Sally (28:24.622)
Cool.

Chloe Stephens (28:25.425)
So A-N-D-R-O G-R-A-P-H-I-S. And it's a bitter herb from Southeast Asia, I believe. Now it's in my medicine cupboard all the time now. I too have not had a cold for the last five months, I want to say. Because the first sign of, you know when you wake up and you just think, ooh, like, is that a sore throat? Is that a bit sinacy? Take a couple of these tablets and it's gone.

Sally (28:54.828)
Okay, okay that's good. I've been doing that with colloidal silver actually, yeah, which is antibacterial, antimicrobial, that stuff and it seems to really do the trick. But yeah, okay great, andrographis. Okay, cool.

Chloe Stephens (28:56.977)
for you.

Chloe Stephens (29:01.142)
I love that tape.

Chloe Stephens (29:08.325)
Yeah.

Chloe Stephens (29:12.719)
Yes, Andrew Griffiths, yeah. I'm not affiliated with any companies, I'm just like, just an amazing, you know, when you really believe in a product, you could sell it, you could sell it all over the place, you know, it's like, I think when you understand that a product works, it's just, have to share it because more people need to be able to help themselves.

Sally (29:38.486)
Yeah, definitely. Yeah, just I do believe in sharing that, sharing what works for you. So as someone who has been through, have you been through menopause? Where are you at with your menopause transition? Are you? What was your journey like?

Chloe Stephens (29:50.937)
Yeah, I'm post-menopause. Yeah.

Chloe Stephens (29:56.817)
Interestingly, so I probably think I went into perimenopause probably about eight years ago, but I didn't really know. So it showed up for me to begin with where just before I was due on, I would be absolutely exhausted. Like I was coming down with the flu and I'd have to go to bed really early for a couple of nights and then I'd bleed. And then I think, didn't realize I didn't correlate that feeling with, with my periods.

Sally (30:25.484)
Hmm.

Chloe Stephens (30:26.149)
And then I suppose after I had a few hot flushes maybe sort of five years ago and I've not actually had terrible symptoms until...

Sally (30:37.678)
What do you put that down to?

Chloe Stephens (30:40.751)
I think I don't drink a lot of alcohol. I used to be a major party animal, but I haven't been drinking alcohol very much for the last sort four years. I ditched caffeine a year ago. And I think I have been prioritizing, know, lifting weights, Pilates, fresh air.

eating well for about 10 years now. So I think again, the compounding has helped me. But although a year ago, I did go to my GP because I had, my sleep was screwed up. And for someone that coaches people in sleep, it's a bit unnerving when you're doing all the things and it's not working. So I went to see my GP and he was male.

Sally (31:29.687)
Yeah.

Chloe Stephens (31:36.611)
And he just said, what do you want? And I said, well, what do you think I should have? He said, well, you can have what you want. So I opted for a patch. I brought it home and it sat in my drawer for about three months because I was too scared to put it on when I'd seen all the side effects. I spoke to my sister a couple of years younger and she said, if you put your pet, know, feel amazing. So that night I put it on and.

Sally (31:53.324)
Yeah.

Chloe Stephens (32:05.489)
I haven't got it on still. I usually wear a bit like an aura ring on my finger called ultra human. And within three days of putting the patch on, heart rate was up, temperature was up, heart rate variability was down, which means that my body was in a state of stress. So I went back to the GP and I said, I don't think this is working for me. And it was a lady and she said to me, Oh, just try it for three months. So I went away feeling a little bit

concerned because I'm a big believer in I know my body more than anybody else. So I went home and long story short, within about five days, I was in A &E, I'd had a massive panic attack. I've never had one, but it was just like my heart was going to come out of my body. And the doctor in A &E just said to me, take off the patch, took off the patch and within 48 hours,

Sally (32:40.951)
Yeah.

Sally (32:52.019)
bless.

Chloe Stephens (33:06.16)
I was actually sleeping better. So at that point I thought, okay, sugar's, I don't eat a lot of sugar, but sugar just needs to be like very much reduced. Caffeine, I don't even drink decaf at the moment. I'm just trying to purify things and things seem to be pretty good. But I understand that, you know, that, well, I'm sure you can still keep getting drops even a couple of years later.

And I think, I think, well, just in, know, hormones, hormones just shifting. I think after the trip to New Zealand and the messing up of the circadian rhythm, which of course shifts the hormones, I've been having a few anxious feelings the last couple of weeks. And I'm sure that that is directly correlated to just spinning your world upside down, literally.

Sally (33:35.992)
drops in Easter Journey, you mean?

Sally (33:42.392)
Yeah.

Sally (34:02.262)
Yeah, literally. Going to the other, the antithesis of the globe. Well, that's fascinating. Yeah, because I've had Paula Rastrick on the podcast that, I mean, her stuff on Instagram is amazing. She's got a book coming out soon around hormonal sensitivity and how women who have a predisposition to have a dysregulated nervous system because of trauma or genetics.

Chloe Stephens (34:07.662)
Yeah.

Sally (34:29.186)
can respond very differently to estrogen and progesterone. And it sounds like, know, with estrogen being the excitatory hormone and progesterone is inhibitory, for you, taking that amount of excitatory hormone just was like, no, your nervous system did not like that. So interesting, yeah. Good for you for listening to your body.

Chloe Stephens (34:52.09)
No.

Chloe Stephens (34:57.327)
Yes. But yeah, it was a bit of a scary time. yeah, I do believe that, you know, doctors can, we can go to the doctors. But you know, if I'm wearing this ring on my finger that's saying, you know, temperatures up, heart rates up, it's like, and I was feeling bloated as well. It's like something's not, I don't think this is really for me.

Sally (34:59.584)
Okay.

Sally (35:19.438)
And yet some women, if they don't have enough estrogen, can get those symptoms.

Chloe Stephens (35:24.676)
I know.

Sally (35:26.826)
It's such a, it's an area that just needs so much more research and knowledge and funding ploughing into, isn't it?

Chloe Stephens (35:33.713)
Yeah.

Chloe Stephens (35:37.485)
Yes, 100 percent.

Sally (35:39.022)
So what else? What else can I ask you? Let's talk about... let's see, let's see... there's a question here... common misconceptions in today's Always On culture. What are some common misconceptions about rest and how do you help people overcome them? What are some of the common misconceptions that you see about rest?

Chloe Stephens (36:01.497)
Yeah, well I think, especially in the corporate world, I think people see rest as being weakness.

Sally (36:07.906)
Mmm.

Chloe Stephens (36:09.807)
You know, it's like I look at people, I've worked with people in corporate, big corporate organizations, and they can't switch off because they've got to hit targets. They've just got to keep going. And I think it's channeling that, you know, misconception that actually when you do a little bit less and you take a bit of space, that gives you the impetus to do more.

It's all about building that performance, know, getting your personal performance up takes time away. So I think that that's the main thing is really around, you haven't got to be switched on all the time. It's not, it's not a badge of honor anymore. In fact, I think more and more people are recognizing that, you know, the word self care is, it's kind of banded around such a lot, but I think it's so much more than, you know, a massage or having your nails done. It's actually...

checking in with yourself, you I've been involved in mind, body, you know, connection for such a long time that I know that if I'm thinking, if I'm worrying about something, I can feel that going on in my body. So it's the same thing with like learning to rest and relax a bit is your body then gives you the signals of, oh, yeah, this is, this feels good eventually. It takes, it takes a little bit of practice, doesn't it?

Sally (37:33.238)
It does take practice, especially in a world that's been conditioned to be in survival mode all the time and then, as I said before, rest doesn't feel safe.

Chloe Stephens (37:44.175)
Yeah, when our poor little primitive brains are just stuck way back, aren't they?

Sally (37:49.73)
Yeah, yeah and I think I read somewhere as well that that worry can be incredibly addictive because when we were children and we used to worry and then it got fixed the brain would release dopamine so we get this like if I worry problems get fixed if I worry problems get fixed so that's really interesting as well isn't it?

Chloe Stephens (38:16.337)
That's powerful, isn't it?

Sally (38:17.836)
Yeah, I learnt that from Dr Russell Lala in his book. I can't remember. I want to say Russell Howard, but that's a comedian. Russell, Anyway, his book's called The Anxiety Prescription. I do recommend it. It's really, really good. Yeah, it really helped me just sort of break the cycle of worry and yeah, just feel my feelings more. It's really good. Highly recommend it.

Chloe Stephens (38:47.405)
I will put it on my list.

Sally (38:49.654)
Yeah, I do. So let's talk about sleep because sleep is such a big one when it comes to it can be very, very distressing, can't it? Like if we're not sleeping, my husband's just started not sleeping. And I had him get up the other night for like the umpteenth time, walk into the front room with his pillow. He just went. I was like, I know that feeling when you just can't get off.

the frustration knowing that you've got to work the next day and all of that. How have you navigated? What are some of your most brilliant tips have you got for people who really struggle with their sleep?

Chloe Stephens (39:32.049)
Yeah, I think that one of the simplest ones, but again, these, you know, the simple things are not always easy. And I believe that the simplest thing people can do is to try and go to bed and wake up at the same, within the same hour. Yes, if you're going to bed at nine every night, even at the weekends, you want to be going to bed by at least 10. But, you know, again, most people, what do we do? We go to bed like early during the week, and then we try and have a lay in at the weekend and we stay up late and

I just, it's trying to stay in that window, again, keeps your circadian rhythm a little bit in balance, a little bit happier. So that's the first thing. I think again is that, you know, time restricted eating. So I sort of advocate for myself, try not to eat anything three hours before sleep. Because of course, if your body's trying to digest food or alcohol or tea,

it then can't deal with trying to go to sleep. So that disrupts as well. But I think the most powerful one, and again, it's that lesson from New Zealand, is that light in our eyes first thing in the morning is one of the most important things for sleep. Because it encourages that melatonin, which we need to then drop off in the evening. So I've got my trusty little

light box here that you know every morning especially at the moment is just what I use every morning to just just to help my brain wake up and the other one that people really don't want to hear is not to not to look at this you know and half hour an hour before bed and the same in the mornings but you know think all of these things are like it doesn't have to be half hour you could try just five minutes to begin with you could try 10 minutes you could you know you can always build on these things

Sally (41:30.338)
Yes, building in small micro habits that are values based as well, you know, so they're in alignment with your own values of feeling good and healthy and all of that. And sort of weaving them into tasks that have that you already do. Like, for example, when I'm coming around in the morning, instead of. Thinking, worry some thoughts about the day.

Chloe Stephens (41:39.408)
The end.

Sally (41:58.292)
I now go, when I recognized, look, I'm worrying, so there's gotta be a level of awareness first. What can I say to myself instead? Because I believe that a good night's sleep starts the minute you wake up. You've probably heard that before. And it's, you know, our mindset is so important as well, because I think one of the problems with sleep...

Chloe Stephens (42:11.342)
Yeah.

Sally (42:21.918)
is we get locked into a very negative and self-defeating mindset around it, especially if we wake up in the middle of the night, can't get back to sleep. We can become very panicky and fearful around sleep as well, which is what can happen once that insomnia is really embedded into our system, which is where, you know, I've been there. was horrible symptom of mine. But I love what you're saying about going to bed at the same time.

Every night I'm waking up at the same time every day. Definitely 100%. I was so resistant to that and so many of my clients were resistant to that as well. Do your clients feel a bit resistant to that when you offer that advice?

Chloe Stephens (43:04.195)
Yeah, of course. you know, I, the ones that really do well are the ones that a bit like you just said around the values is they, they start to actually decide that, okay, what's, what's really important to them? Because if, if waking up with energy is important to them, then they don't actually mind so much implementing whatever it is, but it has to work for them. You know, because I

You know, we can have all the knowledge, but it's not about us helping people by giving them our knowledge. It's helping them to figure out, okay, how does that work for me? how can they make those habits become unconscious? You know, one of the things I say to people is, know, when you wake up in the morning, what do you do before you leave the house? And they sort of say, well, I get up and I have a wee.

Sally (43:43.202)
how they can integrate it into their life. Yeah.

Chloe Stephens (44:01.999)
and brush my teeth and have a shower and it's like, okay, so would you ever leave the house without doing those things? And they're like, well, of course, I always do those things. So it's learning, like you said, how to like habit stack them on top of one another. So it's like, okay, when you brush your teeth, could you take your vitamin? When you go to wash your hands, what else could you do just to add onto that? So it just becomes seamless because

When our habits become seamless, we're not then thinking, it's another thing to do.

Sally (44:35.843)
Hmm.

Yeah, because that's major resistance, isn't it, when we think of something taking a really, really long time. It's like, if I think to myself, right, I'm going to go to the gym, that's an hour out of my day. Ugh, can I actually do that? But then if I go, right, I'm going to listen to an audio book while I'm there, that's two things I can do at once, yeah. And that will buy me some time, or that will create more, I don't know what the word is, there's probably a word for it.

Chloe Stephens (44:57.201)
Yeah.

Sally (45:07.116)
Be more efficient and effective with my life. Yeah.

Chloe Stephens (45:09.573)
Yeah, yeah, I love that.

Sally (45:12.526)
Yeah, okay. So you've said time restricted feeding as well, definitely. And I think that can be titrated, can't it? So if you're not used to doing that, it might be a bit of a shock to your system and might have the opposite effects, like creating too much cortisol in the system if you suddenly go into all this intermittent fasting. again, has to be, I'm doing it myself at the moment. So I've actually got like a three month plan that I'm doing. So,

Chloe Stephens (45:32.656)
Yeah.

Sally (45:41.432)
For the first month, I'm not eating after dinner. That's all I can eat, whatever I want. But my only rule is I'm not eating after dinner. And I've got all these like kind of, if I'm starting to feel a bit hungry or peckish, I've got a list of what's actually happening in my body as I experience hunger. So that motivates me to just sort of...

Chloe Stephens (45:52.016)
Yeah.

Sally (46:07.916)
you know, move through it really. And it's not actually real hunger, is it? It's just dopamine hunger in the evening after your dinner. And then the second month, I'm going to delay my breakfast. And then the third month, I'm going to actually improve the quality of my meals. And then the fourth month, I'll decide after that. Yeah, I will do. I thought it was a really interesting way to approach it rather than going, I'm just going to start.

Chloe Stephens (46:13.745)
Yeah. Yeah.

Chloe Stephens (46:28.753)
Let me know how you get on.

Sally (46:37.974)
and do absolutely everything all at once. It's like you're just carefully titrating it so it takes less time.

Chloe Stephens (46:44.177)
Yeah, and that shows how well you know yourself as well. You know, it's like getting to 50. I believe that I know myself so much better than I used to. And I know that, yeah, if I stop everything, or, you know, I will burn out, you know, I will give up. Whereas if I'm a little bit kinder to myself, and it's just like, okay, we're gonna gradually shift this, we're gonna gradually add a bit more of this. It just becomes who you are rather than...

got to do this thing, but then there's another stressor, which again, we don't need any more stress. We need to just nurture and be kinder and, you know, give ourselves a little bit of self-love.

Sally (47:22.347)
Yeah.

Sally (47:26.858)
Yes, yeah. And I think we do, don't we? Like the more we, the older we get, the more we do know ourselves. And I know like you probably, Chloe, you know what you need and you know that going guns blazing at a diet is just not going to work.

Chloe Stephens (47:44.239)
No, but I used to think that was the way.

Sally (47:46.668)
Yeah, me too. Yeah, absolutely. Right, this has been a great conversation. What else? Yeah, what advice would you give to women experiencing, no, not that question. If there's one key insight about the power of purposeful rest or about anything that we've spoken about today that you would want our listeners to remember, what would it be?

Chloe Stephens (48:15.441)
So I think that the biggest takeaway I would love to give your listeners today is just to remember that any change they want to make in the art of recovery is just to break it down. What could you do 1 % better? What tiny micro minute of time can you add into your day?

that will gradually build the process of learning to slow down. You know, it's just that we've talked about micro moments about just, you don't have to have a whole hour. You don't have to have 30 minutes. You might just have to have one minute. If you had one minute on every hour through the day, imagine how much different you would feel by the end of the day by just sitting and being, you know? In fact, final thing I'm gonna say is, you know,

What about the next time you go out, you just decide to not take your phone with you?

Chloe Stephens (49:23.781)
You know, go for a walk without your phone.

so that you just look up, so you listen, so you check into your senses and maybe feel your life open wider too.

Sally (49:36.366)
Yes, yeah it's I think we need to have the courage don't we to go out without our phones because I think that because so many of us exist in that survival brain we think what if something bad happens what if I fall over and break my ankle what if I get mugged or what if what if what if what if and it's like having the courage and the faith to just go out without our phone

Chloe Stephens (50:01.201)
Yeah.

Yeah, it's so liberating when I was in, I keep talking about New Zealand, but in New Zealand, the internet is not quite as forward as we are in the UK. So often there would be no signal in some places. So I got used to just actually having my phone. I wasn't plugged in all the time and it, you just feel different, but then you get back here and it's almost like you're, you're pulled straight back into, okay, like

And everything's on our phone, isn't it? Everything, camera, wallets, all this stuff. But again, it's that practice of just, if you can't go out for a walk without it, could you just put it in the kitchen while you're doing something else? So we're not having all those tabs open all the time.

Sally (50:50.21)
Yeah, yeah, which can be quite degrading for our focus. To say the least, yeah. Yeah. So, well, I've really enjoyed talking to you, Chloe. How do you work with people? Is it one-to-one? Is it group sessions?

Chloe Stephens (50:55.661)
Yeah, yeah, it's set up in there.

Chloe Stephens (51:09.229)
Yeah, I mainly work one to one. I'm actually going to be bringing out a group session and I'm also doing some speaking, some keynote speaking in big corporates so that I can create more impact so that more people can understand a little bit more around these simple habits that can make the big difference.

Sally (51:30.926)
I love love that. In terms of that that sort of making impact, what's really important to you? Like what's the core value of yours?

Chloe Stephens (51:40.697)
core value of mine personally.

Sally (51:42.454)
Hmm, yeah, and professionally.

Chloe Stephens (51:45.017)
Yeah, I think personally, one of my core values is freedom. Because I had a child when I was very young, I was felt like I had clipped wings for a little while. So freedom, freedom to me means that I can, you know, working for myself, I've got time to do things that I like to do. Integrity is really, really important to me. You know, I'm I feel that I'm very open in what I share.

Sally (51:48.855)
Mm-hmm.

Sally (51:55.938)
Yeah.

Chloe Stephens (52:14.673)
And I think that when I open up, it then encourages other people to speak their truth as well. And I think that curiosity is another one of my values. You know, I think that there's never just one way and it's just learning that, you know, we can all have different views and different ideas, but it's helping people as well to be curious about what's going on with themselves.

and helping them to realise that there is always a different way and sometimes they've got used to feeling the way that they do and just some tiny changes can just shift their outlook and have a big impact.

Sally (53:00.576)
Yes. Yeah, it doesn't have to be a big old monumental shift. It can just be a little one that gets them into that. What was it you said? Feel life outwardly. Feel life open wider. Yeah.

Chloe Stephens (53:13.137)
open wider. You sort of like that expansion of like a flower opening up. It's like, you can just, you're more in tune with who you are and you can just see the world in a different light.

Sally (53:29.43)
Yeah, beautiful. I love that. Yeah, I've really, really enjoyed our conversation. We are neighbours and I'd love to hang out with you and have a coffee with you.

Chloe Stephens (53:40.977)
Maybe not a coffee, but we'll definitely do something. I'll have a peppermint tea or something.

Sally (53:45.024)
Yeah, herbal tea, yeah caffeine free meetup. brilliant. So where are you most active on social media Chloe?

Chloe Stephens (53:48.401)
Yeah.

Chloe Stephens (53:54.097)
You can find me on Facebook or I'm on LinkedIn as well.

Sally (53:59.278)
Amazing! Well, if you've enjoyed Chloe's words of wisdom and you want to connect with her, you want to get into her world, go and follow her on LinkedIn, Facebook and I think you're on Instagram as well, aren't you?

Chloe Stephens (54:15.793)
I am, yes. Instagram tends to be more about me. You know, it's just, so, yeah.

Sally (54:19.15)
so the professional side of things, mainly more on LinkedIn. Yeah.

Chloe Stephens (54:24.581)
Yeah, yeah, you know, just a little bit more about the real me or find me on Instagram being me.

Sally (54:31.522)
Beautiful. All right, lovely. Take care.

Chloe Stephens (54:34.363)
Thank you so much.