184 The Funny Side of Menopause with Michelle Cohen

Join me and Michelle Cohen (entertainer, writer, producer, director, singer, intuitive coach) in our conversation about her journey into the menopause space, highlighting her creative approach through the pop-up book Menopop.

Our chat emphasizes the importance of humor and imagination in navigating life's challenges, particularly during menopause. And in this conversation, we talk about:

🌱 Creating Menopop: A Fun Approach to Menopause

🌱 The Importance of Humor in Healing

🌱 The Power of Imagination and Intention

🌱 Exploring Female Evolution and Menopause

🌱 Empowerment Through Knowledge

🌱 Redefining Aging and Femininity

🌱 Navigating Menopause with Awareness

🌱 Tools for Managing Menopause

🌱 Embracing Discomfort for Growth

🌱 Welcoming in the Menopause Journey

We’d love to have you join us on this funny and insightful conversation.

Michelle’s Links:

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@menopopulation
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/menopopulation/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MenOpopulation/
Website: www.michellecohen1.com

Sally's Links:

[Free Guide] Healing The Trauma Underlying Your Menopause Symptom Severity:  https://www.sallygarozzo.com/healingtraumatheguide

[On Demand Masterclass 2 hours] How To Heal The Trauma Underlying Your Menopause Symptom Severity [£17] https://www.sallygarozzo.com/healingtrauma

[On Demand Workshop] Redefine Your Values at Menopause and Live Life in Alignment With Them [£27] https://www.sallygarozzo.com/redefine 

[Online Practitioners Diploma - Self Paced] Menopause Wellbeing Practitioner [£127] https://www.sallygarozzo.com/meno

[One to One] Transformational 30 Day Rewire (Includes RTT) [£447]: https://www.sallygarozzo.com/rapid-transformational-therapist

Instagram:  https://www.instagram.com/sallygarozzomindmentor

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sallygarozzo/

Send me a voice clip via What’s App - https://wa.me/message/FTARBMO7CRLEL1

Transcript

Sally (00:01.282)
So my guest today is Michelle Cohen. Michelle is a multi-talented creator whose work spans writing, producing, directing, performing and coaching. Her work has been recognized by CNN, Good Morning America and People Magazine. Michelle crafts compelling content that entertains, inspires and sparks meaningful change. Currently she's collaborating with SOL, the nation's leading spirituality and mental health app.

Michelle's notable achievements include producing the off-Broadway sensation Schoolhouse Rock Live, spearheading the publishing of Jeff Corey's memoir Improvising Out Loud, featuring none other than Leonard Nimoy and Jack Nicholson. She's also co-created Menopop, which I can't wait to learn all about today, and hosted World Menopause Days' It's Cool to Be Hot party.

As an educator, Michelle has taught at NYU, guest lectured at UCLA and developed innovative workshops for creatives and professionals. And today she continues to inspire transformation through her diverse and impactful endeavors. So Michelle, welcome to the pod. How are you?

Michelle Cohen (01:17.857)
Thank you so much. so happy to be here and to meet you and say hello to everybody.

Sally (01:22.67)
It's so awesome. We were just chatting before we came on live that you are in my favorite city of them all New York, New York

Michelle Cohen (01:31.329)
Yay! It's so much fun, you had to name it twice. New York, New York.

Sally (01:35.368)
Exactly, exactly that. So I'm very jealous. I mean, it's gorgeous where I am, but I'm jealous. I would rather be in New York City.

Michelle Cohen (01:43.575)
Well, you can feel the vibes right now. We're in it together.

Sally (01:46.472)
Yes, thank you very much. Thank you. So I'm always so curious to know how people from a non-medical background end up in the menopause space because I think it just goes to show how all-encompassing the menopause transition actually is. So let's start there. Can you tell us a little bit more, first of all, about your pop-up book and how you ended up getting so interested in the menopause transition?

Michelle Cohen (01:57.068)
You

Michelle Cohen (02:12.278)
sure it actually all comes together. So yeah, I'm in the creative field in the creative world, but what happened to me and my company, it is what's happening to the rest of the world. Someone you love suddenly goes into menopause. And one of our main people, we were developing a TV show at the time. She was 20 years older than us and she started having heart palpitations. And I mean, and this was

a good 20 years ago. there was very little information. She had no idea what was going on with her. I was freaking out and slowly started, you know, from the doctors and everything, they figured out, okay, she's in menopause. And all of us went, what's that? And mostly because we are of service and entertainment people, said, well, how do we make you feel better? So we started looking into, there anything not only to make her feel better, but that actually might be fun, you know, crazy talk.

And we discovered there was very, very, little out there. I mean, at all. was all just this excruciatingly hard, you know, difficult to read, let alone to want to read. And none of us are quite sure exactly why or how. We suddenly thought what the world needs is a menopause pop-up and activity book.

which we called Menopop. And we went about to discover what it would mean, discover how to do it right, to tell them how to do it with love and care and awareness. And lo and behold, these performers were suddenly dealing with China and special, you know, people bringing, shipping all of the paperwork to here and...

I mean, all of the kind of entrepreneur stuff that you deal with to create, I mean, this beautiful, it's a beautiful book. very proud of how gorgeous it came out, but it's also really silly and really funny. And we created a menopause fairy who used to be the tooth fairy and now look at her. She's not very pleased. So she got demoted and she basically takes you through what are a lot of the symptoms and each page. I mean, you, the

Michelle Cohen (04:29.332)
main pop at the beginning is literally a uterus popping out with fallopian twos. And it's just, it's fun. It's, we call it like the welcome mat to menopause. Like you're gonna have it, everyone's gonna go through it and anyone adjacent to you is gonna go through it too. How do we learn what's happening in a sort of less dour, scary, horrifying way? Like.

Sally (04:34.348)
Wow.

Michelle Cohen (04:57.726)
We're not going to say you, we're going to like cure you. We can't, you're going to go through it, but can we hold your hand and can we say you're not alone? And can we say, maybe part of this could be a little bit funny if you want to find your funny bone again. You know, we're just trying in our own. Bizarro brains way to make it an easier journey. Cause you're going to go through it, but this way it's kind of like a big old hug.

And it's also really silly. mean, my favorite, we have a centerfold miss my period. And she's in a tub with like ice and air conditioning flowing at her. And my favorite is you put, says, do not pull. So of course you have to pull and you pull and up comes this very good looking bare chested gentleman with a palm frond and he's waving. So it's just this big old fantasy. We're just doing everything we can.

Sally (05:28.131)
Ha

Brilliant.

Michelle Cohen (05:52.501)
to make it as palatable and fun as possible. So that was how we came up with and actually created this book.

Sally (05:58.06)
I love that.

Sally (06:02.264)
I've got this vision in my mind of all these creatives just improvising, you know, and I've done a little bit of improv and I love how these ideas are sparked.

Michelle Cohen (06:09.064)
Uh-huh.

It's amazing. mean, I remember very specifically us. There were four of us who created one man. The man actually is the one who illustrated. So it three women, one woman who was going through it, two women who were way younger, and a gentleman. And we just started exploring and riffing. And I'm very proud I came up with the idea of a centerfold. I don't know why, but I think that's kind of funny. I know, right? But we all, I mean, we all just contributed in different ways. Like one of the main...

Sally (06:33.026)
Go you!

Michelle Cohen (06:40.406)
menopause symptoms is brain fog. And you actually, what I've learned is you lose your nouns. You can't remember the names of things. It's literally your nouns. So we created a page called Tag a Thingy. And it's just Post-it notes that says, hello, my name is Desk. Hello, my name is Fido the dog. So it's just like, again, you kind of want to wear name tags after a while because you do. I mean,

Now that I'm older and I have actually had the experience, I'm like, oh wow, I really, I'm like the thingy thingy, what's that? And because we like the word thingy, that's just a fun, lots of consonants kind of word that became the name of the page. please do.

Sally (07:18.477)
Yeah.

Sally (07:21.806)
I'm trying not to laugh over you because this is hilarious. I went into a bookshop the other day and I saw these Post-it notes, which are so useful when you're going through menopause, but they're like static. They're not sticky, they're static. these aren't there, but they're like... Here we go.

Michelle Cohen (07:35.083)
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Cohen (07:47.67)
Sounds like.

Sally (07:50.198)
sounds like you know those great big sheets that you used to get and I don't know if anyone's ever used these like when you're plotting something it's like a static whiteboard and it goes up on any wall and you can use a dry marker but they're they're like and I thought my god these are so amazing you know I'm stuck they are everywhere all around the house now

But you're absolutely right, it's the nouns, it's the and places and people's names and the names of things. Where do they go? They go into this like menopause ether.

Michelle Cohen (08:27.446)
The special fog, exactly. Well, we also created, because I wanted people to have a space to be able to show that their mood swings happen like every five seconds. So we created a section called Dial a Mood. And we have the dial a mood ladies. And you keep dialing and you get, you know, like weepy Wanda, lonely Lenora, angry Agnes, tired Pat. You know, so you just keep learning all these different characters. And what I love is that way, you know,

a family member comes near you and you can find like angry Agnes, she's, step away from mom. You know, it's a great way to help people understand that you are truly mood swinging so quickly potentially. And also the great different levels of moods that you can be having. It's, I mean, it's so, I mean, it's so specific to no one has the same menopause. Everyone has their own.

Sally (09:03.565)
Yeah.

Michelle Cohen (09:24.576)
personal version of it. And some people bless them, get through it really easily and it's not a big deal. And other people, it's just medieval torture. And we actually end it, we have at the back of the book, we say to all those women who went through menopause in the dark and to all those wishing they could currently stay there.

Sally (09:30.883)
Yeah.

Sally (09:45.1)
Yes, yeah, yeah, it's so beautiful and you know what I love about the idea of it is how it kind of normalises what you're going through and as you say it's like it's funny, it's a warm hug, it's like hey look we get it, we get it so much that we created a pop-up book for you. This is how much we get it.

Michelle Cohen (10:08.478)
Right, and here's the thing, we on purpose made it an evergreen. It looks like a kid's book from the 60s. So every generation that is going to go through it, it will still be relevant. And what we found is that it's a combination of for those who literally think menopause is just your period stops. Good luck with that one.

Sally (10:31.992)
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Cohen (10:32.246)
And then other people who just think they're crazy and by themselves and don't understand that that's what they're going through. This is sort of just a calm, easy way to just get a heads up. You know, we put a whole bunch of symptoms in there so that you can be, you know, going, that's a symptom too. Okay, got it. You know, so that, and what's fun is because it's a pop-up book, everyone and their mother wants to pick it up.

So we have lots of people who, know, their husbands get it for them and then their kids are looking at it. So then they're like, oh mom, you're having a hot flash. Like now they know. And it's an easy way for every, the whole family to understand. Oh, we also, cause we can't be ambitious enough. There's a game in the middle of the book. It's called Men O'Land and it's literally, it has a spinner. It has little, and we have people like in offices that

Sally (11:06.701)
Yeah.

Michelle Cohen (11:24.17)
will, you know, for their break, they'll actually play MEN-O-LAND. And you know, the object is to try to get the menopause, ha ha ha. And it just takes, you know, if you hit a certain tile, it's like, you're all frustrated, go to the wall of frustration, or you're in a fog, go to the swamp of confusion. You know, there's all these like fun, again, ways to learn what the symptoms are by landing on that tile and having the menopause experience of back.

and forth until eventually the ending is room for hope and we hope to get you through that. Yeah.

Sally (11:55.37)
I love it! I love that idea of Men-O-Land. I can see Walt Disney taking that on and creating a theme park.

Michelle Cohen (12:05.174)
Right? Oh my God, I hadn't thought of that. Well, it's sort of a riff on Candyland. It has a semblance of that, but I love turning it into a, I mean, that's the thing. It's especially this generation of women now, the generation prior when we first created the book was a more quiet, less confrontational group of women. Whereas this next generation, it's like, what is happening?

Sally (12:25.614)
Mm-hmm.

Sally (12:30.637)
We're noisy.

Michelle Cohen (12:30.664)
I want to know. We are so noisy and I'm thrilled about that. It's why, you know, we, we, kept the book. It, it did very well when it first came out, it was self published. So the fact that we did as well as we did was pretty impressive, but we found the past couple of years, it was like, we need to rejoin and remind this new group of women because they are screaming for this. They're like, what has happened to me? I'm not going to go quietly into the night.

Sally (12:34.509)
Yeah.

Michelle Cohen (12:59.755)
And it's been really, it's funny, people are like, you were such a visionary. I'm like, no, we just were loud enough, I guess, at the time.

Sally (13:08.214)
Yeah. And if you create something good enough, you don't actually have to push so hard to get it to market as well, because people naturally want it. And it sounds like that's true. I just had my visions of Mennoland, know, real in-person Mennoland, just being full of spas. Like the roller coasters are very slow in Mennoland.

Michelle Cohen (13:16.374)
Bye.

Michelle Cohen (13:28.246)
Perfect.

I love it and you're handed beautiful sparkling water as you come in or alcohol, whatever you need. Whatever's gonna get you through.

Sally (13:38.07)
Yeah, Foot rubs on every corner. Yeah, I love it. I love it. And I love also how the book sparks conversation between family members and colleagues and it just sort of takes the seriousness away from it, which can be a real barrier to those conversations, can't they?

Michelle Cohen (13:42.72)
Perfect.

Michelle Cohen (14:01.462)
Absolutely. mean, a lot of the work that we do, you can simply be an entertainer, ha ha ha, but we have felt because media is so impactful that the more you can actually, even if it's subtly, add help, add awareness, add challenge that changes you, but in a fun way. We call it healing through humor. I think that's a gift. mean, that's how I like to go through the world.

Sally (14:24.802)
Yeah.

Michelle Cohen (14:30.09)
you know, I can be having the worst possible thing going on. And at this point in your life, of course you have, know, something has happened. And I always say to people, if you see that I've lost my sense of humor about it, please be worried because that's when, you know, how do you get out of that? And it's not that you're mocking something. It's not that you're making fun of it. You're just trying really hard to find a perspective that you can live with and that you can.

you know, remain powerful when you are feeling powerless.

Sally (15:03.778)
Yeah, I love that. Yeah, that was going to be my next question actually for you was around humour. Explain a little bit more what healing through humour is and why it's so important, but also why it's been important for you personally and how you kind of keep your sense of humour going through hard times. think you've got a story, haven't you, about surgery and a intravenous...

Michelle Cohen (15:28.309)
Yeah.

Sally (15:32.684)
and George Clooney.

Michelle Cohen (15:32.887)
Yeah, yeah a little bit So yeah, I I'm known for being fun and funny. That's just my kind of automatic So I don't expect I don't expect everyone to be joking What I always ask people is even if you don't think you're funny or you don't have a joke just allow For lightness in the room allow people to be funny around you because that already is going to make a difference so for me being hyper funny I was

actually in the hospital for surgery and of course out of my mind in fear and concern and I didn't feel well, I mean all of that. And I was gonna be in there for a couple days and I thought, okay, this needs some attention. I need help. And so me in my bizarre brain way decided to go into fantasy land and bring everybody with me. So the first thing I did was, you know, I had the intravenous

in my arm and the pole, and I looked at the pole and I looked at this nurse who was gorgeous. He literally looked like George Clooney. He knew it. And so we called him Nurse George Clooney. And I turned to Nurse George Clooney and I said, this is my boyfriend. What's his name? And he said, Paul. I'm like, Paul the Paul? I'm like, okay. So Paul and I are very attached and we started being really silly and anybody would come in to take my blood pressure or do whatever, we'd start talking about our relationship.

and having a really good time. And then one moment, George Clooney was helping me and at some point he looked at me, he's like, are you cheating on me? And I'm like, I'm so sorry. I mean, he started playing with me too. So it's like, I'm sorry, we can talk about it in therapy. He's like, I don't know, I'm really bummed. I'm like, I'm so sorry. Okay, don't look at him, don't talk to him. And we would start, I had to take walks around the...

Sally (17:13.367)
Okay.

Michelle Cohen (17:23.59)
know, the hallway and he would walk with me like we were on a date. He's like, I'll pick you up at five. I'm like, thank you so much. And then one time Paul the pole did something to my arm and we had to take it out. So I said, we were having a really rough time and we need our distance and I didn't want to talk to him. I didn't want to talk about it. I mean, it was just absurd, but what started to happen was not only was I just in this like crazy fun head space, all of these beleaguered nurses and doctors who are so busy.

Sally (17:40.6)
You

Michelle Cohen (17:52.075)
They had so much fun coming to me so that the morning of my surgery, have, know, everyone's like around your bed to explain what's going on. And I turned them and said, I'm so excited for my spa. And they're like, yes, would you like cucumber in your water? Should you have a massage? I was like a foot massage during my spa time would be lovely. And like we turned it into, I wasn't about to go have an operation. I was going into a spa.

Sally (18:14.145)
I love this.

Michelle Cohen (18:15.978)
And it was just, mean, afterwards I reflected on it and I thought, you yes, that was like my way of getting through it and feeling like, except for the surgery part, I had a good time, a little crazy, but it also, everyone lit up. I mean, I will say I had better attention because people wanted to come play with me. It wasn't on purpose, it just happened. And I could see people light up who were normally just dealing with such hard, hard days.

So it was sort of a blessing in disguise. So the humor wasn't just my healing, it was healing for everybody in that room. And that's the thing to remember when someone's going through menopause, everyone around them is going through menopause.

Sally (18:57.666)
Yeah. Wow. You have literally like it's, it's so genius. I think what you've been doing there, like creating this alternate reality. And actually this is, and especially for things like medical interventions as well, you know, in I'm a hypnotherapist and I work with people who

Michelle Cohen (19:15.222)
Mm.

Sally (19:16.99)
often have health anxiety and they're terrified of going into hospital or having surgery or getting ill or anything like that. And I think if you can reframe, if you can go into a happy place, go into a comedic place and find the funny in something.

you know, I'm sure it's changing the neurochemistry massively in our body. I did it once actually. had my first ever surgery with spinal surgery. I know it wasn't major, major, but major enough. And I was seeing a kind of spiritual

Michelle Cohen (19:45.161)
Exactly.

Michelle Cohen (19:49.972)
Ugh.

Sally (19:59.694)
Healer counselor at the time and she said to me right what I want you to do is just write down a letter from your future self to your present-day self Telling your present-day self how well everything went Yeah, so that you know you had a really funny nurse and they gave you you know, it was funny and

Michelle Cohen (20:12.278)
Gorgeous.

Sally (20:21.09)
I don't think we quite got to it was like a spa, but I mean, genius or what? Like you'll go, you know, you're walking down into, into theater and you're actually going to have a spa. mean, I love that. That is, that is the ultimate reframe for me. Yeah, I love it. And yeah, like literally when I, when I woke up from surgery, well, everything that I predicted happened. Happened. Yeah. Yeah.

Michelle Cohen (20:49.174)
Gorgeous. Wow.

Sally (20:51.084)
Great nerves, woke up, feeling, you know, the first thing I did was wiggle my toes. I knew that that's what I'd set myself the intention of wiggling my toes to make sure I got that connection there, you know, and didn't lose the connection in my legs or anything. And yeah, it just all went really well. And my recovery was so quick because I'd put it in my script.

Michelle Cohen (21:15.082)
That's exactly, here's the thing, our minds are very suggestible. Now I'm not saying go into delusion, like that's not useful. Like stay aware that you're playing healthy delusion fun. Like stay very aware that you're going into this, you know, I'm an actor by exactly, you know, I'm trained as an actor. So I know that, you know, I'm still playing a script as opposed to I have become this, you know, deluded human, but that exactly, but that being said, there is something kind of.

Sally (21:18.743)
Yeah.

Sally (21:23.928)
Healthy delusion.

Sally (21:29.474)
Choose it. Yeah.

Sally (21:37.856)
Yeah, it's not psychosis.

Michelle Cohen (21:44.979)
other about being happy even in pain. Like it's a choice and I'm, I'm, am not in any way saying that it's always easy. Like there are times when you are just curled up in bed and you're a mess and not much is going to help. I totally get it. We all, including me have absolutely been in situations where it's just too, it's too much. It's just too much to ask of yourself. So you wait for the moment when you can start to climb up.

Sally (21:48.718)
Mm-hmm.

Sally (22:08.109)
Yeah.

Michelle Cohen (22:11.858)
a bit, but to your point, there's something our brains are thirsting for how to make us feel better. So if we add to it all these ideas and these thoughts,

And the idea of manifesting, they say to, I mean, I do a lot of intuitive and spiritual work as well. And there's something about speaking the words out loud, toning. There's a frequency that your body adjusts to, like your frequency raises because it's feeling better. It's like, I think we both do singing and there's something about music that too, I mean, you may not be a funny person, but you may.

Sally (22:42.157)
Yeah.

Michelle Cohen (22:48.65)
you know, adhere to the rhythm of the music that play upbeat music. Don't play, you know, some scary dom da dom, exactly. Put on something joyful that just makes you so happy. Like that alone can absolutely, like you don't have to do the work, let the music do the work for you. But just intending.

Sally (22:55.182)
dum dum da dum dum da dum da dum da dum

Michelle Cohen (23:11.518)
I think as long as we inform ourselves, our brain, our heart, and the universe that we are intending to feel better in the, with ease and grace is the words I always use, then all kinds of amazing, wonderful magic, like did I ask for Nurse George Clooney? I didn't even know there was possible to have him, but there he was. And what's funny is I found out later he was not supposed to tend to me.

Sally (23:24.078)
Mm.

Michelle Cohen (23:38.314)
But what happened was, you automatically get wheeled in no matter what your state is. So I was being wheeled in and I was sort of doing the Queen wave at everybody.

Sally (23:47.672)
Hahaha

Michelle Cohen (23:49.815)
Because I just felt so silly being, I don't know, I wasn't that ill to be in a wheelchair, so I had to like make it funny. And he said he saw me do that. And he turned to the person who was supposed to take care of me, said, she's mine. And absolutely came in, because he's like, I've never seen anything like it. It was crazy and fun.

Sally (24:07.228)
wow, I'm just like, yeah, I love this. I think you said something earlier, your brain is always seeking ways to help you. And I know that to be true.

Michelle Cohen (24:20.374)
Thank

Sally (24:23.15)
Your imagination is so powerful. And this is why I really love working with actors actually, because their imaginations are so easy to work with oftentimes, and they're really into characters and characterization. Funny little pins and needle thing went on there in my arm. That's odd. I need to make, I don't know, make light of it somehow. I forgot what I was gonna say.

Michelle Cohen (24:39.19)
us.

It's a symptom.

Sally (24:51.2)
Yeah, the imagination is incredibly powerful, incredibly powerful and I often think of it as a higher sense, you know, like a sense that we can activate when we are aware that we have that choice and I think without sounding awful I think we get a bit lazy.

Michelle Cohen (25:00.022)
you

Sally (25:16.012)
Because I think especially in this day and age with AI, chat GPT, like we're losing that ability to create in a way, you cause we've all, we're spoon fed information and resolution and solutions with chat GPT.

Michelle Cohen (25:29.232)
Mm, that's a really great point. think, I mean, part of it may be lazy, part of it just may be because there's no, a lot of people don't take the time to close their eyes and just be inside themselves. You know, there's so much stimulation and it's on constant repeat and it's exciting or it's, you know, takes you away from stuff. But I'm such the adherent of shut everything down, close your eyes and say hi.

Sally (25:54.027)
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Cohen (25:57.335)
see what's going on inside. And there's all kinds of activity that the way I've learned it, you just have to ask. If you don't ask, nothing shows up. But if you ask the question of like, even if your brain like, hey brain, what else do you want to say to me? Or hey heart, what do you want to tell me? Or, know, belly, what do you want to share with me? Like, there's so many ways to be creative and intuitive.

without having to go into major like psychic elements. It's actual, it could be, I always say, who cares if it's psychic or it's your own imagination, as long as it feels good and as long as it helps. So we all have incredible capacity. I you're using your imagination in the morning when you're deciding what you want for breakfast. You're imagining, you're checking with your body, what do I want? And so already you know you have the skill. It's just a question of...

Sally (26:30.722)
Yeah.

Sally (26:39.054)
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Cohen (26:47.622)
now saying, okay, let me expand that. Let me work that muscle. Let me see what else I can. So I'm going to imagine having breakfast, but I'm going to imagine like sitting amidst all of these incredible masters. I'm going to sit with Michelangelo and with Maya Angelou and have a conversation with them while I'm having my cereal. You're like, then you're really expanding your brain and you're having fun. Like to me, it's all about, you know, humor ultimately is laughter.

which just ultimately makes you breathe. So that's sort of my like little trick, especially when I gave singing lessons, I would always make people laugh and they're like, no, this is serious. I'm like, no, you're learning to breathe better. Like you automatically have to take a deep gulp if you're laughing hard. So yeah.

Sally (27:33.098)
I see what you mean yeah yeah love it so you recently read a book didn't you how the female body drove 200 million years of human evolution by cat cat cat who's it by cat Bohannon yeah how long ago did you read that

Michelle Cohen (27:47.476)
I re- by, yeah.

Michelle Cohen (27:53.887)
Yes.

Michelle Cohen (27:57.739)
I read it about a year ago. I was stunned by it. Like I love, I love history. I love reading. I mean, I'm just sort of, if the next cool thing I'm totally wanting to read about. And this one, was really impelled. mean, I was like, could not stop eating it. It was such an incredible, the written book. I mean, she's basically a researcher. She's not also not a medical person, but she just thought.

Sally (28:01.197)
Yeah.

Michelle Cohen (28:27.006)
The way of history from the dawn of time is so male-centric in terms of how things happened or why things happen. And she kept saying, there's gotta be a reason we have breasts. There's gotta be a reason we're the ones having the babies. There's gotta be reason that all of these aspects of femininity.

helped evolution and made changes. And she did this extraordinary, incredible amount of research, scientific and sociological and you name it. And I have to say, luckily, it's a really fun read. Like it sounds like it be very dry and technical and I would not be able to read that. I took forever to read it because I didn't want it to end. But it was just so incredibly empowering and they had an entire chapter about menopause.

And she really talked about and deconstructed the idea of it's only in recent history that we live this long, that we live long enough to go into menopause. So she started again looking at, what's the positive? What's the benefit of, and one of the, I loved one of her posits was that,

Sally (29:18.702)
Hmm.

Sally (29:31.288)
Mm-hmm.

Sally (29:36.824)
What's the benefit, yeah, of women living longer?

Michelle Cohen (29:44.907)
These women have lived long enough that they can now, with wisdom, help the younger women birth the babies and live, help the child rearing. In essence, what a grandma, a grand person does is exactly right. And so that's a phenomenal reason to have those women live longer, because they can help the tribe remain alive.

Sally (29:52.482)
Yeah.

Sally (30:00.15)
Grandmother, yeah.

Sally (30:12.972)
Yeah, there's an evolutionary benefit to women going through the menopause in that it supports social structure, it supports the coherence of our younger people making better decisions, improving their mental health, improving their relationships, creates a healthier society, right? Yeah, and I often wonder if the patriarchy...

Michelle Cohen (30:34.291)
Exactly.

Sally (30:39.2)
realize that and that's why they attempt to shut us down.

Michelle Cohen (30:43.448)
without a doubt, think whether it's patriarchy or any regime that is quote unquote trying to stay in power and emphasis on trying, I feel deeply that it's in order to, the only way they can stay in power is if other people are not only in fear, but if they're in ignorance. And if you have knowledge and you, if you've lived long enough, you have it, that's not gonna help somebody who wants you to stay stupid.

Sally (31:12.833)
Right.

Michelle Cohen (31:13.78)
And the thing that you totally see in this day and age of women who are still with us and have made it into their 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, boy, boy, do they have knowledge and they have power. I mean, the more we're recognizing that we're not old, we're not crones in the icky sense. I mean, there's a beautiful recent version of crone, but it's been given a witchy negative spin. But I think the more women real, I mean,

Sally (31:23.863)
Yeah.

Sally (31:31.48)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Michelle Cohen (31:42.569)
You look at women now, I look at women in their 50s and 60s who look like they're 30. So, I mean, we're not looking those ages anymore or the old version of what we thought it looked like. We're not behaving that way. We're still unbelievably viable both in careers, both in sexuality, in so many ways. It's just, my God, without a doubt. And so we're a little foggy, but you know what? Give them an extra minute because it's worth it. What's going to come out is awesome.

Sally (31:48.205)
Yeah.

Sally (31:55.918)
Mm.

Sally (32:02.158)
Creativity. Yeah.

Sally (32:12.62)
Yes, yeah, yeah, I love that. When I saw that you'd mentioned that book and you really, you mentioned how much of an impact it had on your life. was like, I'm just gonna quickly research this and had a little look at it and thought, yeah, I really wanna talk about that because it seems like it's a positive spin on something that often is seen as...

a loss or a lack of, know, menopause is a loss of fertility or a lack of youth or whatever. It's like this sort from there on after it's kind of downhill until death, right? But it's not at all. It's a total reemergence.

Michelle Cohen (32:58.72)
I have to say all of my friends in their sixties, they keep saying, like, my God, just you cannot believe it. It's the best. And I mean, what generation would ever have said that? And I feel the truth of it. I feel people are really, you know, just coming into their own. Like I always say, Louise Hay, who created Hay House and all of the great healing. She did not, I mean, Hay House is this huge, huge, huge, huge success, huge publishing company. She didn't start that till she was 65.

Sally (33:16.738)
Yeah.

Sally (33:28.866)
Did you not? Wow, okay. Wow.

Michelle Cohen (33:30.228)
No. So I look at things like that, I'm like, my gosh, I still have so much time, yay.

Sally (33:36.27)
Yeah, and it's almost like being gifted hindsight, isn't it? You we always say, oh, if only I knew what I knew now, we know when I was 20. But because of how much information we're gathering about menopause and going through menopause, we get to 60, we've got so much wisdom because of all that hindsight. And we also have a good decade, if not two or three, to move forward.

nurturing our new ideas.

Michelle Cohen (34:07.806)
It's true. I also feel that, I mean, after you've lived a couple decades, so many things that bothered you in your twenties, or you were nervous about, or self-conscious about, it just goes out the window. It's so interesting, and I'm so grateful for it. Like, even preparing for speaking with you today, I'm sure 30 years ago I'd be like, I'm nervous, and is it gonna go okay? And I'm sort of like, I'm so excited, this'll be fun. Like, I love that that's my attitude now.

Sally (34:35.98)
Yeah

Michelle Cohen (34:36.502)
And that's, think, hard earned. I think that's experience and just knowing, you know, again, after you've had some ick in your life, you know, if it's been in the hospital or whatever it is, you just, your proportion of what's upsetting and what isn't, I think changes drastically.

Sally (34:56.184)
Yeah, it really does. What's been your experience of your menopause transition? I mean, where are you in the menopause transition right now?

Michelle Cohen (35:04.81)
Yeah, I used to joke when we put the book together that I thought that meant I should be able to skip menopause, because I was giving such a gift to the world. So that did not occur. However, I was pretty lucky that it was maybe two years worth as opposed to a lot of time. And again, I have to say, because I was aware of what to expect, there was no fear. There was no freak out. was like I had my first hot flash and went,

Sally (35:12.256)
No.

Michelle Cohen (35:34.295)
but that was it. was like, okay, got it. And I knew how to prepare for it. I knew how to handle it. Like I think I'm one of the few people who, I'm out in the world, if I'm suddenly having a hot, it's like, I'm just sweaty. Everybody just everybody hang on, give me a minute. Like I feel comfortable enough that I can say something. think a lot of people are still embarrassed or.

Sally (35:51.523)
Yeah.

Michelle Cohen (35:57.705)
not sure how to handle it in, you know, I'll be in meetings, know, important meetings with mostly men and be like, y'all just need to deal or I'll be like, I can't remember the word. I'm having a mind moment. Everybody just give me a second. You know, I feel very blessed that because I was so aware of what was happening that I was able to.

speak and communicate with others and not feel embarrassed. it actually, A, it trains people. It tells them to be aware of something. It also makes it less of a big deal. If I'm not making a big deal of it, I'm just like, you know, hang on. It's like somebody is about to sneeze. You're not going to be like, my God, what's wrong with you? It's just like you wait for the sneeze and you say, bless you. It's kind of the same thing. It's like, hey guys, I'm hot. Give me a minute. I'm uncomfortable. Okay, now I'm back. Anybody have a tissue?

Sally (36:36.109)
Mm.

Sally (36:48.194)
Yeah.

Michelle Cohen (36:48.458)
you know, to be able to normalize it and to be someone, you know, in my own experience, there was just never an embarrassment. There was never a freak out. And I think that I absolutely attribute that to having worked on Menopop and being really clear of.

You know, also I've been doing writing for it. So I learned like there were 34, at the moment they think there's about 34 symptoms and some of them are really weird. And one of them was allergies and I had started sneezing a lot and I was like, okay, that's menopause. Like to be able to just attribute it to something that I'm not dying and that it's actually just something, and I think that's part of why it was easier for me to get through. mean, there were times I was wanting to like kill 30 people, of course.

Sally (37:28.622)
It's such a relief.

Michelle Cohen (37:37.749)
But on the whole, even when it got kind of, you know, the symptoms were.

relatively unbearable or the mood swings were just really rough. I just knew that it was a time in my life. It was a phase. It would be over and that, you know, whoever I was on the other side of it would be stronger and also done with, I mean, you can have certain symptoms the rest of your life, but on the whole, it's mitigated and on the whole, you feel like a human again in whatever version you are now.

Sally (38:09.549)
Yeah.

Sally (38:13.144)
Yeah.

Michelle Cohen (38:13.276)
So I, you know, I didn't escape it, but I feel like I was able to, and this is what I'm hoping the book does and Menopop as a brand does is that it helps people have enough awareness so that you can build your own, even if it's a fantasy around how you want to experience it in a way that's, that's dealable, that's palatable and that, you know, dare we say once in a while fun.

Sally (38:41.134)
dare we say. Yeah, it reminds me, because I've created a series of hypnosis recordings to help women go through menopause. One of them is called Cool Your Hot Flush. And my signature central recording is called Sail Through Menopause. And there's lots of metaphor in there around just sailing and calm waters. there's an occasional bump, and you just glide through it.

Michelle Cohen (38:51.594)
Perfect.

Sally (39:09.4)
There's a wave, you just stand at the front of the helm and you go with the flow and you enjoy the excitement of the waves and you know, all of this kind of language. Yeah. And as you say, I like how you're bringing that sort of choice into it. And it's true when I'm more deliberate with my mindset, I do feel a lot happier. I feel more in control. I feel more like, yeah, just myself. I feel like I'm being really authentic and tapped into my own sort of

Michelle Cohen (39:17.29)
beautiful.

Sally (39:37.59)
powerful resources and it's a really lovely way of approaching your day, you

Michelle Cohen (39:39.936)
That's perfect.

Michelle Cohen (39:44.107)
Yeah, and I also do say to people, don't try to do it when you're in the middle of the mess. Like sometimes you're just gonna be a mess and that's okay. But do try when you're feeling better for a minute or a day, like that's the time to say, next time this happens, what's another way? What's another option? What do I wanna experiment with? And it's an experiment, cause you know, what one person finds, you know, safe and healing and fun.

Sally (39:51.543)
Yeah.

Michelle Cohen (40:11.126)
would not necessarily be the same for somebody else. But I do say, you know, it is so worth it when you are feeling better to think about what you can do when you're not feeling well. So that it's already installed in you so that there's a chance that you'll remember to bring it up when you're in the panic or the pain or the whatever's going on.

Sally (40:34.868)
exactly that, exactly that. It's that, what does Socrates call it? Something around the unexamined life. So having that sort of ability to reflect and examine thyself.

Michelle Cohen (40:52.308)
Know thyself. That's, uh-huh.

Sally (40:52.894)
know thyself, yeah, and see how we can improve upon, build and evolve next time round. It's all a journey, it's all a process and the good news is you can't get it wrong because there's always going to be another opportunity. So I love that, it gives you freedom. Yeah, yes there will!

Michelle Cohen (41:09.174)
Oh yes, there will. You can depend on it. Didn't do it for that hot flash? Well, give me a minute. Oh, there we go.

Sally (41:15.79)
Exactly. Just circling back to what you said about being in the meetings and just sort of going with the flow and going, give me a minute. I think that's really kudos to you about how comfortable you are within yourself. And I think, you know, this is part of the invitation of the menopause is to unmask and to be conf...

confident and comfortable with yourself because actually we get to a point where we can't not You know if you if you're if you if you don't think it's an issue for you then menopause will will Automatically do it for you now what I'm trying to say is if you don't want to work on yourself Don't worry menopause will make you do it

Michelle Cohen (42:02.634)
Bang on, you got it. Yep.

Sally (42:06.976)
Yeah exactly, yeah like go on.

Michelle Cohen (42:09.482)
Yeah, well, I mean, that's another way to look at menopause. It's the opportunity, anything that even unconsciously you didn't know to work on, how great that it's gonna pop up so that you don't bring it with you for the rest of your life. Like, I mean, that's the beauty to me of self-reflection, that you, I know it's hard, I know it's hard to find time, I know it's painful sometimes, but the person you become on the other end of it,

is so worth it. I mean, that's what I say. Everyone's like, oh, I want to be more like you. I'm like, I did a lot of homework. I did a lot of work on myself. And at times it sucked, but.

Sally (42:44.012)
Yeah.

Michelle Cohen (42:51.718)
I am so happy with who I have become and I get to model for people what's possible in a way I couldn't have done if I didn't sit and stare at the wall and go like, okay, really deal with this or ask for help of I don't know how to deal with this.

but I think a lot of people, and I get it, just like scurry around and skirt around it or just keep going, but yeah, at some point you're gonna get smashed in the head. So I prefer to make it a light tap as opposed to a mallet. Exactly.

Sally (43:26.7)
Yeah, full on bulldozer. my god. Yeah. Okay. What are we going to talk about now? Okay. So yeah, what tools and what tools, techniques or perspectives have really worked for you during your menopause transition? I know you do talk about tapping. there any other things that you can vouch for that you've enjoyed?

Michelle Cohen (43:52.811)
Yeah, I love the tapping. I use the, it was called tapping solution with Nick and his sister. I've got a name, it Jessie, something with a J, she's awesome. That's the one I use and I love, I just think they're kind and loving and they actually have Menopause tapping on their app, which is really helpful. So that's something I, in terms of an external.

Sally (44:05.486)
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Cohen (44:19.592)
tool that I use. But I've also really, I've gotten very good about making sure I check in, you know, throughout the day, not just in the morning or in the evening. I'll even set an alarm.

And, you know, alarm goes off, let's say at one in the afternoon and I'll just, you know, everything stops and I just kind of check in with myself and be like, okay, how you doing? Did you get off track? Do you need some help? Do you need a nap? Do you need water? Are we doing good? You know, it just really, I think the more our body knows that we're communing with it and that we're listening, like my sister has an acronym for pain and it's pay attention inside now.

Sally (45:01.751)
Love it.

Michelle Cohen (45:02.154)
And I love that because to me, anything that hurts, it's just a cry from your body to pay attention to it and say, notice something's going on and notice that the sooner and more immediate you take care of it, the faster it'll go away and the worse it won't get. You know what I mean? So I think really, I mean, I know everyone's like, I have no time and I'm so busy and I have so much going on.

Sally (45:20.021)
Mmm.

Michelle Cohen (45:27.83)
I don't care. could be while you're on the toilet, seriously. Like no one's going to be bugging you then unless there's a cat like, you know, rubbing against you. But aside from that, like find the time. And I get very serious. I have a lot of clients that I work for and I'm like, this is where I don't find it funny. Find your time. You can. There are anyone on the planet. And even when actually when I'm at my busiest is the best time. And I find that

time itself will bend for you. If you are like, you know what, I am going to take that walk, even though I know I'm supposed to do the last next five things. What you find is you take the walk and then you come back and it's like, things get done really quickly because you are now aligned.

Sally (45:57.944)
Yeah.

Michelle Cohen (46:14.09)
When you're aligned, your flow happens easily. If you're all over the place and you're out of whack, that's when things go wrong and you have to deal with obstacles and you have to deal with everything being a mess. So I find the more aligned I am, the more time I have.

Sally (46:26.029)
Yeah.

Yeah, I agree. I did it today actually, I was feeling really tired today and I didn't know, my husband says you don't know whether you want a shit or a haircut. I'm like, I didn't know whether I needed to go to the gym or go to sleep, you know, when you get that. And in the end, well, actually what I did, I took myself off because I work from home, sometimes I get cabin fever and I thought, my feeling is like check-in. I love that.

Michelle Cohen (46:36.822)
no!

Michelle Cohen (46:46.473)
Sure.

Sally (46:57.004)
check in with yourself, I need to be in a different environment. So I went across town, sat in a coffee shop, had, you know, turmeric latte, so privileged, and then came back home and carried on, did a bit of work. And then I was like, I am exhausted and I am cold.

Michelle Cohen (47:07.754)
Yay.

Sally (47:19.628)
and I got into, I've got a bed sauna, which I haven't, it's like a blanket sauna. I haven't used it for, since last winter because it's been bagged up. And I'm like, this is ridiculous. Get it out. And I went in it for half an hour before our call today.

and my god, I feel like a totally different person. I'm warm on the inside, I feel like radiant and glowing, I've had a sleep, I went into that lovely theta state, I had some like really lovely music on, and I haven't, I realise I haven't done much self care recently. And that, that sort of...

sluggish tiredness it always comes like at night time if I'm not sleeping very well if my brain is really active at night time that's a sign for me that I need to do more self-care during the day yeah so as you say our bodies are giving us a signal you know they're telling us all the time and I love these self check-ins like yeah we can do it we've we've got

Michelle Cohen (48:13.654)
Perfect.

Sally (48:27.502)
And of course I have a list as long as my left arm, as we all do, of things that we have to do, but in that moment I'm like, no self-preservation.

Michelle Cohen (48:40.042)
Yeah. The other thing I teach a lot when I do workshops is in those moments when you're checking in, make sure you're not checking in in your head. Cause that's the monkey mind that's busy, busy, busy, busy, busy trying to help. And you just, you're not going to get the best response. So I always say when you want to check in, imagine walking into an elevator and press down and feel yourself.

Sally (48:48.246)
Yes.

Michelle Cohen (49:02.934)
working your way below your neck, anywhere below your neck. It could be your heart, could be your belly, could be your gut, it could be your toes. But when you're checking in with yourself, make sure it's literally inside your body because that's where you're going to get the most valid and truthful assistance. yep, down the elevator.

Sally (49:21.634)
Definitely. Go down, go down. Yeah, I love that analogy though. The elevator's brilliant, because I always say that in my hypnosis scripts, like you go down into your body, like your body is full of information, but we check out from it, don't we? So easily, so quickly, we go, vwoop, close the door to the body, ignore what we're feeling.

Michelle Cohen (49:40.33)
Yeah. Yep.

Michelle Cohen (49:48.801)
Well, our culture in our world is not really helpful that way. You know, they're not really, I mean, in a consumer world, it's not helpful for someone who wants you to buy things from them, for you to be self-reflective and in your body and happy. Like, they want to make sure that you're uncomfortable and not happy with yourself so that you buy things, which is unfortunate. And so recognizing that so that...

Sally (49:53.89)
Yeah.

Sally (50:06.134)
Yeah, true.

Sally (50:12.398)
tree.

Michelle Cohen (50:18.423)
you can step away from that animal once in while is not a bad thing.

Sally (50:23.904)
Yes, definitely taking your power back. We take our power back by kind of descending into the body and seeing what we need, slowing everything down. Yeah, and I think I don't know about you, but it's it's have you read dopamine nation?

Michelle Cohen (50:40.84)
I haven't.

Sally (50:42.47)
Haven't read it. I can't remember the name of the author. She was on Stephen Bartlett She's docked to somebody the other terrible isn't it like my mind I'm gonna have a look I'm gonna get it now bear with me one sec diary of a seat. We'll take a pause and hope We're just riff riff riff and hope that my internet connection Right, where is she? I think it's dr. Judith

Michelle Cohen (50:54.77)
Okay, we will take a moment.

Michelle Cohen (51:03.592)
All good.

Sally (51:13.774)
Here she is.

Michelle Cohen (51:18.048)
So good.

Sally (51:21.462)
dr ana lemke l-e-m b-k-e the dopamine expert you have to listen to this episode on diary of the ceo my god my my

Michelle Cohen (51:29.418)
Great aim.

Sally (51:38.21)
I can literally feel my dopamine receptors like screaming now in my brain and I'm recognizing how you have to sort of lean into that discomfort in order to starve those dopamine receptors so that they become less resistant to dopamine. So you're not constantly searching and craving for those things that are going to give you a hit. Highly recommend it as you know for any of our listeners and for you Michelle. Yeah.

Michelle Cohen (51:59.104)
Right.

Michelle Cohen (52:03.05)
That's beautiful. Thank you. Well, you also brought up a great point is that I think most of us don't deal with our pain because that initial amount of discomfort that comes up sucks. There's no getting around it. It absolutely sucks. And

what I always say to myself and to anybody who I say, just bear with it, it's so worth it. know, it's, mean, labor, know, whatever you want to akin it to, but you you've got that baby at the end. So at some point you just need to give yourself the love, like love yourself enough to go through that painful part in order to be done with it.

Sally (52:29.399)
Yeah.

Sally (52:45.986)
Very, very wise words. Yeah, it's sort of like learning how to be with discomfort. Isn't it like, how can we reframe discomfort? How can we be with discomfort when we're constantly trying to escape discomfort in this world where everything is so convenient and instant? We have to learn to go the other way really and lean into it for the sake of our health.

Michelle Cohen (52:52.886)
you.

Sally (53:13.366)
Yeah, such an interesting conversation. Sorry, Michelle. Go on.

Michelle Cohen (53:17.31)
No, I'm just not gonna finalize that. It's also, you may be surprised at how much it doesn't hurt, and there is no discomfort. Like a lot of times I'll be like, my God, this is gonna be the worst thing ever, and then like, well, that was it.

Sally (53:22.466)
Yeah? Yeah?

Sally (53:30.894)
Yeah exactly that it's like when you go to the doctors and they go sharp scratch or something as they're about to like put you put the needle in I'm like don't tell me sharp scratch like please don't tell me sharp scratch just just do it because it's probably not gonna be like a sharp scratch it's well if you tell me that you're gonna prime my brain to be listening out for the pain

Michelle Cohen (53:43.296)
Right?

Sally (53:57.026)
Whereas if I can dissociate from it slightly, it's just like a little teeny tiny thing. Cool. So we're coming to the end of our conversation. Michelle, how do you actually work with people? Do you do one-to-ones?

Michelle Cohen (53:57.269)
Right.

Michelle Cohen (54:02.198)
little prick.

Michelle Cohen (54:14.74)
I do both. I do workshops and such, but I also do one-to-one sessions, I call them. I can do half hour, hour. And I do a lot of intuitive work. I do literally intuitive sessions so I can tune in on people and feel where they're at and help them on their way. If anyone wants to look at what I do, the Sol app, the Sol app.

I'm there as a guide so people can apply under that auspices. Yeah. I'm trying to remember, did I remember to put it onto my website? I'll put it on my website too. So you can find me there. My website, so the website for Menopop is menopop.com, M-E-N-O-P-O-P.com. And then my website is Michelle Cohen, 2Ls with Michelle Cohen, the number one.

Sally (54:47.792)
brilliant.

Sally (54:53.004)
Yeah, what is your website?

Sally (54:57.738)
Okay.

Michelle Cohen (55:07.958)
And if you don't find what you're looking for, just send me a note and I will hook you up wherever you need to go.

Sally (55:16.334)
Brilliant, brilliant. And where are you most active on social media, Michelle?

Michelle Cohen (55:21.11)
I'm not brilliant at. I've been lucky enough to not have to be every day, every hour, every minute on anything. But I do, yeah, no, it's not gonna last because some of the projects I'm working on right now, I'm gonna have to be much more present and available, which is fine. I mean, there's something wrong with it, but there's also something nice about not having to glue to my phone at all times.

Sally (55:23.072)
Ha!

Sally (55:32.738)
You're so lucky.

Sally (55:47.022)
Mmm.

Michelle Cohen (55:47.798)
So for Menopop, we're mostly Instagram and a little Facebook and we're doing TikTok now. We're getting into that world, which is, well, it's the next generation coming in. They should know what's going on as well.

Sally (55:56.59)
Ooh.

Sally (56:01.204)
Yeah, that's very true. And if you could give one piece of advice to someone who is approaching the early stages of perimenopause, what would it be?

Michelle Cohen (56:13.268)
jokes from me wants to say run but but the real human is yeah without a doubt I mean that there's just no way I mean here's the thing it's it's kind of like when you get your period it's just something that at first you're like whoa my god what is happening to me and then eventually you find you figure it out you figure out do I want tampons do I want you know you just kind of

Sally (56:14.926)
Menopause is going to outrun you.

Michelle Cohen (56:38.536)
It's something that is a journey. It's not something that's just an automatic fix or an automatic pill and it's going to go away. So I would say welcome it as the chance to get to know yourself and know your body and know your experiences and

If you need help, absolutely reach out. There's tons of communities who want to embrace and there's communities where you can moan and groan about it. There's communities where you can learn about things. There's communities like what we're creating where you can have fun. So, you know, and you may change your mind about which one you want depending on your mood, but just know we all get through it. You'll get through it.

Sally (57:23.126)
Yeah, very, very wise words, Michelle. Thank you so much. I've really enjoyed this conversation and your very funny energy and your naturalness and your authenticity. It's been so great. I feel very calm. I feel chilled. feel like I've been, my funny bone's been tickled, so that's lovely.

Michelle Cohen (57:28.426)
Thank you. Me too.

Michelle Cohen (57:46.812)
My work here is done. That's perfection. Thank you.

Sally (57:50.464)
You're welcome. thank you so much.

Michelle Cohen (57:54.134)
Thank you, Adam.