181 Mindfulness in Movement with Ceri Barnes

Join me and Ceri Barnes in our brilliant conversation about how to make your exercise activities more mindful. As we age, approaching the gym ‘guns blazing’ may result in increased injury. Therefore, our requirements as we get older are different. Discover how in this episode. We talk about: 

🌱 Challenges Faced by Women in Midlife

🌱 Understanding Perimenopause and Its Impact on Movement

🌱 The Importance of Knowing How to Change During Menopause

🌱 Embracing Aging and Self-Identity

🌱 The Benefits and Misconceptions of Pilates

🌱 Finding the Right Pilates Approach

🌱 Integrating Mindfulness and Movement

🌱 The Balance of Strength and Recovery

🌱 Embracing Positive Thinking and Mindfulness

🌱 The Importance of Stillness and Self-Reflection

🌱 Understanding Back Issues in Midlife

🌱 Empowerment Through Acceptance and Education

So, if you’re ready to be educated and inspired, tune in now.

Ceri’s Links:

Website: https://ceri.life/

Facebook Page: https://facebook.com/theyearsofchange

Facebook Page: https://facebook.com/cerisport

Sally's Links:

[Free Guide] Healing The Trauma Underlying Your Menopause Symptom Severity:  https://www.sallygarozzo.com/healingtraumatheguide

[On Demand Masterclass 2 hours] How To Heal The Trauma Underlying Your Menopause Symptom Severity [£17] https://www.sallygarozzo.com/healingtrauma

[On Demand Workshop] Redefine Your Values at Menopause and Live Life in Alignment With Them [£27] https://www.sallygarozzo.com/redefine 

[Online Practitioners Diploma - Self Paced] Menopause Wellbeing Practitioner [£127] https://www.sallygarozzo.com/meno

[One to One] Transformational 30 Day Rewire (Includes RTT) [£447]: https://www.sallygarozzo.com/rapid-transformational-therapist

Instagram:  https://www.instagram.com/sallygarozzomindmentor

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sallygarozzo/

Send me a voice clip via What’s App - https://wa.me/message/FTARBMO7CRLEL1

Transcript

Sally (00:01.08)
So my lovely guest today is Kerry Barnes. Kerry is a Women's Wellness Health and Fitness Specialist teaching Pilates and fitness at her own studio. She also has many other strings to her bow, which I'm sure she's going to be talking to us about today. She presents at various retreats and events and delivers menopause training in the workplace. And I'm really excited to talk to her today about ways that we can keep ourselves well and healthy and positive.

during the menopause transition. So Kerry, welcome to the podcast today, how are you?

Ceri Barnes (00:35.085)
I'm good, thank you for having me. It's something that I love to do, which is chit chat. And it's great to be invited on. Thank you so much.

Sally (00:45.708)
You're very welcome, lovely. So I'd love to learn a little bit more about you. What's your background and how did you get into women's wellness?

Ceri Barnes (00:56.234)
Well, it's quite a long journey really. I suppose it all started when I was about seven years old and I started to go to ballet classes. My grandma's suggestion, who'd been a ballet teacher before the war, by this time she was a farmer in Wales, and we moved to England and she suggested to my mum that she should send me to ballet classes and my mum kind of said, what? This tomboy.

Anyway, I was absolutely hooked straight away and by the time I was eight years old, I was going to be a dancing teacher like my grandma. So I went to, ended up going to professional dance school at age 13 in London. Very, very privileged to have six years training at Arts Ed in London, but I always wanted to teach. So I was surrounded by people that, you know, wanted to professionally dance. And I think even at that stage, I was very much about noticing people's

behaviors and habits and all of those things, even down to what we had at lunch, you know. So I started teaching dancing and then I had my family and realized that being a dancing teacher was quite hard work with raising two little boys and I worked in some great schools and I got invited to teach some fitness classes. So we're now in about 1989 and I then got very hooked on teaching.

women and I even then in my 20s I noticed these women that were going through different phases and changes and I was always very tuned in with it. So even from that stage I wanted to be more than a fitness teacher, I wanted to help people feel well, live well without being obsessed.

And so over the years I studied more and I did my Pilates training, which incidentally I said I would never do because I was like a gym bunny, you know, jumping around everywhere. And I couldn't, even though I was classically ballet trained, I wanted all this high energy stuff. But I also then realized the value of doing something more restorative. So I just always had this...

Ceri Barnes (03:03.704)
real want to make people feel good and feel happy and feel well. So over the years it naturally led me to doing more studies and more qualifications and to where I am now, you know, having this lovely chance to help women to...

feel better. I'm really passionate about pelvic health. So I work with lots of women on their pelvic floor health and I think that's a huge one. I think that's one of the most distressing things for women to cope with. And all things menopause, know, anything I can do to encourage women.

to feel more positive about what they can do to help themselves. And so across the board, I love it when a client says, thank you, I feel better. Simple as that. So that was my sort of journey really. And it's been 43 years of teaching this year. So never giving up, never retiring because it's what I get up for in the morning.

Sally (03:50.157)
Mm.

Sally (03:59.598)
you

Yeah, I hear you actually. I really hear you. I've been doing a lot of work on my own value system recently because I'm going to be teaching a big workshop pretty soon around that. So I've been sort of thinking about it a lot more and actually really reflecting on what my values are. And I hadn't really thought of it in terms of this, but I think what my core value is, is meaning.

So what drives all of my actions, my thoughts, my behaviours, my interactions, my relationships is meaning. If it's got a meaning behind it that is meaningful to me, then I will be driven by it or it will excite me and I will automatically be motivated to do it. I don't have to get myself motivated if it's got meaning and probably like you with this sort of desire to help, that gives my life meaning.

right? And I can't ever imagine retiring like you, yeah.

Ceri Barnes (04:56.102)
Yeah, absolutely. 100 % because I don't ever see, I mean I feel fortunate in having, you know, the work that I do is such a pleasure and people say to me all the time, oh you're so lucky that you love your job. Well I think we make our own luck for a start, but you know, it doesn't, you you know when you've got it right, when it doesn't feel like a job, it feels like a pleasure.

Sally (05:21.986)
Yeah.

Ceri Barnes (05:24.165)
because the rewards are so large when you do something like this. And as you say, the meaning to what you do, if there is a great meaning, it just makes life so lovely that you can have a job that gives you that. don't get me wrong, hours are quite antisocial, always have been. I've worked a lot of hours running a business as well, but I wouldn't change it because it just means too much to me.

Sally (05:36.099)
Yeah.

Sally (05:53.472)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that makes sense. So what are some of the challenges that people come to you with?

Ceri Barnes (06:03.256)
Well, across the board, often the first thing, maybe not so much now, but certainly in the past, I wanna lose weight, is, you know, a classic. And I often think, I can, but I'll leave them with that thought. What about if we start working on your fitness and exercise? What about, because I'm very much a believer in we just take little baby steps, otherwise it's too overwhelming.

what about while I'm training you that I'm sort of educating you about a little bit better eating? What about we don't, know, carefully, we don't make the focus about losing weight and then the byproduct of what we're doing is that they lose weight. So, and sometimes they think that that's what they want, but actually they want to feel better, they want to feel fitter. So, you know, the standard January thing, this year I'm gonna get...

fit and lose weight, you know, that's a classic quote, isn't it? So certainly we see, you I see a lot of that, but as I've progressed with my work, I think that managing life as a midlife woman is massively challenging. And I think, you know, if I'm honest, I think women now have, have, probably choose to be everything to everybody.

And I do think we've seen quite a shift because so many women are so much more career minded and they're struggling because they're almost trying to do too much and to fit in everything. And maybe they're just not listening to what their body is telling them enough. Maybe it's time to just step back, but it's like, no, I have to carry on like I was in my 30s and 40s. I've got to still be that person.

I think I spent quite a lot of time encouraging women to think about that and that we are meant to change and that includes what we fit in our life. It is meant to be a different stage of life. So I think a lot of women struggle, we know a lot of women struggle more mentally, but think there's so much pressure on women. Social media certainly doesn't help them. So I think generally, I see a lot of women, just kind of...

Ceri Barnes (08:24.203)
They just seem to be all over the place and they just don't know where to start. And when you can give them a little bit of hope and a bit of positivity, which is absolutely how I work, and try and take some of their negative thinking away, you start that ball rolling and you see it and it's lovely. So I think across the board, there's all sorts of things that people will say to you, but I do hear a lot, I'm struggling. They're struggling with elderly parents, children.

Sally (08:50.465)
Yeah.

Ceri Barnes (08:53.962)
keeping up appearances, keeping up their job, keeping up their exercise. And of course, I just saw some clients this morning and one of them said to me, of course I go to the bottom of the pile because I've got all this to cope. And I said, yes, but you're here. You're with me training this morning, so you're still making it a priority. So I just feel like where we are now at this, in life now, I think there's so much pressure on women and I think a lot of women struggle.

Sally (09:24.515)
Yeah.

Ceri Barnes (09:24.551)
I can't see the way out.

Sally (09:26.966)
Yeah and often the way out is... how can I put this? It's not a quick fix, the way out's not a quick fix. The way out... I've been doing a lot of thinking about perimenopause because I'm now early, very early, tentatively post menopause which feels really really weird. So weird, I haven't processed it yet. First time I've actually mentioned it on the pod but...

I've been thinking about my whole menopausal journey and what it's been like, you know, from 38 when I started getting palpitations and looked down and I had a little pot belly, I'm like, what? And, you know, it started feeling really anxious and couldn't do the things I, or started to not be able to do the things I used to be able to do and overwhelmed, started to kick in. And when I look at that 10 years later, 11 years later, it's like, what a journey.

And it's happened with this mix between conscious and unconscious, this sort of consciously trying to sort it all out and problem solve. But actually the unconscious has been doing all of that automatically anyway. Like I've been going through this big sort of internal shift, this big identity change, this big behavioral shift of doing things very differently, setting boundaries and, you know, cocooning.

And when I look back, it's almost like, I did a lot of work on myself. I've chosen to do a lot of things like exercise and creativity and conversation and all of that. But the real work has happened through those micro decisions, those micro choices. And just by living it out, just by living out the shit, the roller coaster ride of Perry.

Ceri Barnes (11:16.413)
.

Sally (11:22.878)
and having survived, I just feel that in and of itself has really created probably the biggest shift. And also having this idea that it's meant to be like this, like it's meant to be a bit tumultuous so we can sort it out, so we can regroup and re-evaluate. Because when we're fighting against what is, I think that creates like layer upon layer of extra resistance that we could really do without.

Ceri Barnes (11:43.322)
Yeah, yeah.

Ceri Barnes (11:52.088)
Yeah, I absolutely agree and as you said quite rightly women naturally look for the quick fix there isn't one so just isn't one and I think what's really interesting is that yeah We can make perimenopause an absolute battleground and this is where the negativity kicks in it's like even you know I find that a lot of women that I talk to

I would love to educate them more about preparing for perimenopause, but they've already got the fear factor because I do feel there's a pretty negative narrative out there on the whole. They are petrified of what is in store for them, where we know that...

you know, one woman in four don't even notice that they've had the menopause and we know that two in four women have an okay time. And of course we acknowledge that there are women who have a really tough time, especially if they've had a premature or surgical menopause, you know, absolutely we acknowledge that. And some women do struggle more. I do feel a lot of the struggles come from them.

expecting too much of themselves and trying to do too much and their stress levels are so high and that's the worst thing that we can have, you know, when we go into perimenopause. But I think exactly as you say, know, the programme that I wrote, the years of change, it always used to be, I'm going through the change, but that word is absolutely, nails it. Change, we change when we're a baby to become a toddler, to become a young child, to become a pubescent.

you know, teenager, we change to be a young adult, we change again, we change again. Change is okay, but suddenly at menopause, it's not okay. It's not okay because, you know, is it the aging thing? I don't want to get old, I don't want to look old. For me, that change is, you know, it can be massively challenging and we can have all sorts of, I don't like the word symptoms, but signals, because the body's signaling to us like, hey, listen up.

Ceri Barnes (13:59.583)
Something needs to be altered here because this is why you feel like you do. And I think we do change and if we can't acknowledge that change and go with it and listen, I mean, I always say listen in, your body tells you everything you need to know if you listen. But if you make it that battleground and you think, no, no, no, I'm gonna stay the same, then it's not gonna come out well.

For me, one of the pleasures of reaching 60 last year was like, hey, I'm 60, I don't know how many years post-menopause, 13 maybe. It's pointless saying to somebody when they're struggling, hey, it's gonna be great when you've gone through it. However, I do say that to some people, look forward because I can almost guarantee you a time where you...

you will get through this and you will have changed and a lot of your life will have changed. But for the better in many ways, being post-menopausal is not old, it's being grown up wise and people respect you. They're like, know, ask Kerry, she's 60, she knows. So we mustn't fear, we mustn't fear this stage of life yet.

Sally (15:07.608)
Yeah.

Sally (15:14.338)
I love that.

Ceri Barnes (15:20.404)
It's crap sometimes in perimenopause. I can't say that I had a terrible time, but I have a great time. And I wish I knew everything that I knew now, because I think I might have implemented a few more strategies, which is why I love to help other people. But, you know, when you do come out the other side, like the clouds clear and you think, this is a nice place actually, I quite like it here. Yes, I'm older. Yes, I've got a few more gray hairs. Like, are people judging me on my looks?

Sally (15:43.404)
Yeah.

Ceri Barnes (15:50.496)
No, not anymore. That's one of the pleasures of being older.

Sally (15:54.446)
That is right actually, yeah it's true because I guess the societal expectation is well she's old it doesn't matter what she looks like.

Ceri Barnes (16:03.198)
Great, I'm so glad you said that, I can get away with murder now even though I have to stand in front of classes and look, you know, decent. I'm not like, you know, Barbie model type, which actually I think is why people relate to me quite well. I'm, you know, now under five foot, one of the smallest people on the planet. And, you know, I think people actually like that I'm a real person. I mean, you know, reasonable, in pretty good shape for my age, but I'm no...

glamour queen and I think people relate to that really well actually. And I'll joke about my height and everything like, you know, I don't want to be that perfect person in the front of class. I want to be relatable. But, mm.

Sally (16:34.498)
Yeah, it's nice.

Sally (16:43.244)
Yeah, for sure. And you know, if you are listening to this and you do like to look after your looks or present yourself in a certain way, we're not saying at all that any of that's wrong. We all like to have a little dress up sometimes. You know, I've got my makeup on right now and I'm quite enjoying it. And sometimes I do Facebook lives without my makeup on and that's fine too. So it's, you know, it's how you feel.

Ceri Barnes (16:52.883)
No. god, yes.

Sally (17:07.566)
you the message, the deep message of menopause is you define yourself the way you want to define yourself not by someone else's standards. I think that really is the deep message.

Ceri Barnes (17:17.973)
Yeah, I think, as you say, I think we do allow ourselves, course we take pride in our appearance. I mean, I would never stand in front of a class, having to scrape myself out of bed, you know. We do take pride, but I think you get more comfortable with, oh God, I answered the front door and I've got no makeup on. I think when I was younger, I would have freaked out a little bit. Oh my God, I haven't got my lipstick on. But, you know, it feels like a nice thing not to feel that pressure.

Sally (17:40.643)
Yeah.

Sally (17:46.126)
Yeah, it really, really does. I'm into like, sliders and socks at the moment, and my leggings, and I just stick my leggings on my big fluffy socks, my sliders, my dry robe. I'm the archetypal kind of, I don't know, what's the word I'm looking for? Like, like weird old lady when I'm walking, walking around the block, you know, or taking the bins out or whatever it's like, and I kind of relish in that a little bit. Not...

Ceri Barnes (18:14.323)
Yeah, well I've fallen into the title like because I love walking and I stomp along you know and I go through the woods but like lately I've been called Dora the Explorer quite often and I'm like do you know what don't mind that's fine.

Sally (18:16.494)
Go.

Sally (18:29.036)
Yeah, yeah, I love that. Love that. Right, I've got totally off course here. So I want to talk about, would love, love to talk about Pilates. So Pilates is something that I have typically found extraordinarily boring. I've been to Pilates classes, I've been to reformer and I have to go because I've got, hate saying this, but

degenerative disc disease between L5 and S1. Yeah? Okay. So, yeah. So just to give you a bit of background, I did loads and loads of weightlifting January last year through to August, and I was really enjoying it. I was finding it, you know, I was really finding like a very sort of solar plexus-y part of me. I felt very empowered lifting these weights. And then all of a sudden my head wasn't in the game at all.

Ceri Barnes (18:59.186)
Snap. Matching back, yeah.

Sally (19:26.336)
at all. remember I was mid thrust, you know, when you put the bar across your hips and you thrust up and I think I had about 80 kilos on this bar and I just said to my trainer, my head's not in the game, I'm done, I'm done. And I was literally done for about two months. I couldn't go back and see her. I went back, tentatively, my back was in a mess and I had to stop. So I started seeing a physiotherapist.

who said my quadratus lumborum and the perispinal muscle was so inflamed, it was huge. And she did some work on that part and through her, I've managed to get back into Pilates. Okay, so I do it at home now and sometimes at the gym and I do all those kind of like, or try to do those double leg lifts and all the kind of leggy.

Ceri Barnes (20:11.344)
you

Sally (20:23.992)
things that you can really, really feel deep in your core. And I didn't realize that there was a difference between core work and Pilates. Okay. So there's me saying to my trainer, need to do core work. I need to do core work. And it was actually making my back worse. So when I discovered Pilates in these like finer movements, my back has started to get a lot better, thankfully.

Ceri Barnes (20:33.584)
you

Sally (20:50.402)
But the reason I was resistant to it, and you'll find this quite funny, was because there's no instant manifestation outwardly, I don't think anyway, of Pilates. After you've done a session, you don't have these inflated muscles that you do when you've been kind of lifting weight. You don't have that sense of being pumped like you do after strength training. And I think that's probably why.

Ceri Barnes (21:08.704)
you

Sally (21:18.894)
I really rejected it for quite a long time, even though it's something that I really needed to do. So what I want to sort of talk to you about are the resistances to Pilates, why people don't want to do it, the benefits of Pilates, especially for backs. Now, obviously you've got a bad back as well. So yeah, over to you, lovely.

Ceri Barnes (21:21.327)
Okay.

Ceri Barnes (21:43.253)
Yes, so, oh my gosh, Pilates is such an interesting world. And I think when I started, when I trained to teach Pilates, which was about 26 years ago, after, you know, resisting doing it because I thought, oh, I like just shouting and screaming and jumping up and down and teaching people that stuff. Even with having a classical ballet background.

I don't know what it was, I just thought, yeah, but you know, that's all quiet stuff. However, I would say there's Pilates and there's Pilates, it's a bit like yoga. It's very diverse. So, my Pilates classes and the people I teach Pilates to come back because I like to think that I make it very interesting. So I'm not a classical Pilates teacher, so I don't teach the...

repertoire per se. I suppose because I've got a dance background, I've basically played with palates and that's what I do so that I can introduce an interesting concept to my clients because I'll absolutely agree with you, palates can get really dull and it depends how it's taught.

You know, I still like the fun element in my classes. So I like lots of chit chat, et cetera, et cetera, but I like lots of education. So for me, I think the success to actually keeping people coming back is to make it interesting. So I introduce all sorts of, not for just for the sake of doing it, but lots of different little bits of equipment in my cupboard in the studio. We've got something called the hogs, which are brilliant there for balance.

I use little balance pods, use resistance bands, I use small balls. And I just play with it. I might sequence it. And obviously for beginners, that's not appropriate, but I develop all different little programs, Pilates Flow, and introduce different toys, as I would call them. I did, also lot, Pilates is great, but I think the one thing about it, it can get very one dimensional.

Ceri Barnes (24:00.064)
My body says movement is what we need because that's functional. And I think it can get very much on the floor. And whilst it's great to train on the floor, we don't live lying down. So I do loads of standing work, loads of balance work, which is obviously really precious, especially for the older generation. I do lots of weight bearing work. So when you, as you say, you don't feel pumped after Pilates class.

I could probably make you feel a little bit pumped after a Pilates class. Should I teach you if it was appropriate in that way? So I think it's about making it interesting. The benefits of Pilates are great if it's being taught well and if it's being practiced well. So I would say similar to you, I've got a lot of wear and tear in my back. I've also got a little spondylolythesis, which is a little vertical shift, et cetera.

My physios said, oh, you don't want to be doing full press-ups anymore and full planks, too much load on the spine. So I have to be careful on that. But what it made me think was, do you know what? There's no need to do that high level. There's no need to do the advanced Pilates exercises. Because, like, if I practice Pilates, the more advanced I make it, the more it irritates my back. So although Pilates is very good for your back, it's only...

if it's appropriate to your back. And again, with teaching, I need to be able to work with everybody's body and it is experience and time so that I know how to modify things and change things and make things the best I can for people. And if they want to feel like they've worked in a class, okay, get the bands out and make sure their upper body works really hard because that's fine for their back. Give them squats, give them, I mean, I do...

Sally (25:29.848)
Yeah.

Ceri Barnes (25:54.727)
sort of balance work, so we're on these little hogs that wobble. We do squat, we do balance, I make them do arabesque, I mean, make them do all crazy stuff. But they love it because it can feel like a bit of a workout style class, or it can feel very restorative. And whatever I teach, I always finish it with a relaxation so that they have that reward at the end and it just calms everything down. But there's no doubt that...

people learn about their body because when you're doing things slowly and exercise wise, you can listen to your body better. So I always say everybody should do Pilates, but there is Pilates and there's Pilates and there's Pilates. So I think it's about finding the right Pilates and the right teacher for you and

making sure that you're not going to do a class which is just exactly the same every time you go.

Sally (26:51.84)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Makes perfect sense what you've said. Something that I have found extremely motivating, which got me back into Pilates, was the education piece and my physio actually educating me around Pilates and why it was important and why doing those big back exercises, those extra like 70, 80 kilo deadlifts.

were really activating the sympathetic nervous system. So she basically said to me that, because it was so indicative, at the time I started to go and see her, my anxiety was through the roof. And she said to me, the muscles that are tight in you are the big muscles, and that's indicative that you are in the sympathetic state. You're in the sympathetic mode all of the time.

So I was like, okay, so big muscles equal sympathetic state and the little muscles equal the parasympathetic state. So if you've got weak or untrained like muscles that sort of protect the joints, that stabilize the joints, that means you're not in your parasympathetic enough because those are weak, like you're in the kind of big bulky muscles.

And that was a real light bulb moment for me. That really, really made me. I went and bought the workout witch, her program. Have you heard of her?

Ceri Barnes (28:16.219)
No.

Ceri Barnes (28:22.621)
No, actually I haven't.

Sally (28:24.418)
So the workout which she's, I can't remember her real name, might be Marie, I think. She is on Instagram. She's got like over a million followers and she's got this course that you can purchase. It's all prerecorded stuff and it's very, very, very small movements, but like Feldenkrais, I suppose. And it helps you to move whilst,

Ceri Barnes (28:46.853)
Mm.

Sally (28:51.092)
moving down the spectrum into the parasympathetic to kind of get everything chilled. A little bit like some of the aspects of Pilates I would imagine when you're just doing very small movements. And it really got me thinking like what you said earlier, there's actually no need, there's no need to do long heavy planks, there's no need to 80 kilo, do 80 kilogram dead lifts if you don't want to at this age.

Ceri Barnes (29:18.012)
No, no, think, you know, less is more a lot of the time. And actually, you know, you could do, you could be doing a fairly basic Pilates exercise. So let's take, you're on all fours, you've got one leg extended back, you've got the opposite arm extended forward. And again, probably because of my background, I spend a lot of time saying, I want you to feel what I, I want you to have a feeling in this exercise. You're not just.

You're not just doing it, I need you to feel it. just recently I've just had a thing about, so extend the leg behind, can you feel the inner thigh muscles working? Okay, so you're not gonna move your leg, you're just gonna pretend that you're moving legs slightly across, now can you feel your inner thigh? Yeah, you can feel it now, now extend that leg a bit more. Now reach the arm a little bit longer. You've now been here for 30 seconds and everybody in the class is going, wow.

Sally (30:11.725)
Yeah.

Ceri Barnes (30:12.423)
I am activating my muscles like properly. I'm not just going there and coming back. So for me, is you have to feel every movement that you do to get the best out of it. So always my classic thing is it ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it. And I think, I mean, I strength train, but personally, I tend to teach higher reps, lower weights, and that's how I train for me. I taught body pump back in the day.

Sally (30:19.979)
Hmm.

Sally (30:29.774)
Yeah.

Ceri Barnes (30:42.37)
had about four injuries, kind of thought, great, but actually, you know, as we age, we've got so much more vulnerability in our tendons. We've got to think of our pelvic floor. Is it fit for purpose? I don't want to be having anyone squatting on, you know, barbell on their shoulders with a prolapse because guess what's going to happen? So I do think, you know, we can make people really feel that they're working hard.

without, as you say, loading up those weights, loading the intensity. And back to what you said, apart from the muscle group thing, we've got to remember that intense exercise does elevate cortisol. And there's nothing wrong with that, but a lot of people exercise too late in the day, so they're wired in the evening because they've just done a really heavy workout. So that's something to consider also. And I know for most women, what they'll do is they'll say,

I've only got a certain amount of time to exercise. I don't have any time to do relaxation and breathing. I go, we'll do Pilates then because that ticks your box. Or just go for a walk. Because it's great if you can kill two birds with one stone. You haven't got time to do breathing practice. Well, we breathe lots in Pilates, you know, so. And as I say, I will always teach relaxation even if it's five minutes at the end to just calm everybody down.

Sally (31:50.574)
Okay, yeah.

Ceri Barnes (32:09.192)
I think it's our perception here. If we're told that heavy weight training is what we should be doing, women are vulnerable, aren't they? They'll listen to whoever shouts loudest at them. There's nothing wrong with heavy weight training if you're fit for purpose. But I do think sometimes maybe it's not the best thing for us midlife women to be, our bodies are vulnerable.

Sally (32:27.181)
Yeah.

Ceri Barnes (32:37.853)
Why chance anything? Why put your body at risk if you don't need to? know, in a Pilates class or a workout class where the teacher's kind of saying, now feel it. I mean, I have like three voices. I have the really raw one, the Pilates one, and the really relaxation voice. It's motivation, isn't it? Which is what I kind of pride myself on is that I am often told my motivational skills are.

and it doesn't matter what I teach, you motivated me to do it. But I think part of that is saying, come on, positive thinking, you can feel that, doesn't that feel great? How do you feel? Don't we feel great? That is what women wanna hear, isn't it? Not like, hey, you're doing that wrong.

Not good.

Sally (33:24.206)
Absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah. And something that I just wanted to double down on was this idea of flinging yourself around. I've got a helicopter going above right now. think it's hopefully, it's gonna be gone soon, but if you can hear it in the background, that's what it is. So flinging, flinging yourself. So I recognize this, know, my husband, yesterday.

Ceri Barnes (33:40.969)
can't.

Sally (33:48.566)
I said to him, babe, slow down. Like he just throws his body and like everything's banging and quick and like, I'm like, whoa. I suppose it shows like a difference in our perceptions of how like I've done a lot of work on untangling all of that over the last three months and actually moving and slowing down and using my whole life as a mindfulness practice actually. whether I'm drinking tea or.

you know, unloading the dishwasher or stacking the dishwasher or doing those kind of mundane tasks. I try and do them with mindfulness and pretend it's like a kind of workout class, you know, and I'm doing it really, I'm operating in my body. I'm not flinging because when you fling, you break stuff. And he broke my, I'm moaning about husband now, but he broke a really beautiful crystal goblet that I bought over Christmas because he was flinging.

Ceri Barnes (34:28.284)
Yeah.

Ceri Barnes (34:45.444)
It's funny, it's so funny you say that because in my strength training classes, I've got this thing I say, no flinging and no swinging. But I agree with you. It sounds like we're a bit similar. I used to do everything at 100 miles an hour. I'd be the one that people go, yeah, I saw you like walking through the town yesterday. Well, you weren't walking, you were running. Because I just used to run everywhere.

I did used to run, run, but obviously with my back issues I stopped running. And I suddenly thought one day, why do you do everything at like 400 miles an hour? And my husband says to me, like slow down, you don't need to run there. And you're so right. I think we, I don't know whether we're just trying to fit loads in in a day because when you're busy people you feel like you never have enough time. But it's like, as you say.

Sally (35:36.076)
Yeah.

Ceri Barnes (35:38.523)
slow down, take your time, you know, because otherwise, if you're flinging and swinging and pinging around all over the place, your stress hormones are elevated, and you're like, what the hell's wrong with me? Well, there you go, it's like your cortisol is up there. And you can see that in people, can't you? You you can tell someone who's a bit of a high cortisol person, because they're flinging and pinging and swinging everywhere.

Sally (35:55.586)
Yeah.

Sally (36:05.682)
having a lot of accidents as well you know like things are going wrong they're getting gravy medals down there nice new jumpers and i mean i know we all like accidents happen right i'm not saying you're clumsy just because or you're doing that because you get a gravy medal but i think yeah there's there's there's little in there's little telling signs that someone is in that

Ceri Barnes (36:20.731)
Thanks.

Sally (36:31.988)
activated state and not able to deactivate quickly and easily. I think exercises like Pilates and yoga do help to train that in. They help to train that mindset, that switching into that parasympathetic state.

Ceri Barnes (36:36.601)
Mmm.

Ceri Barnes (36:47.043)
Yeah.

Yeah, and you know the breathing, we know that breathing practices are so powerful, but also because of the way we want the core to activate in Pilates and we want the pelvic floor to be doing its thing in the right way. We know that all of these muscles are driven by breathing and respiration and movement. So I often say to people when I'm teaching, you don't need to tell your core what to do.

it will respond to the movement that you make because that's how our core works. So if we lean forwards, over to pick something up, our core has to activate, otherwise we fall over. And so I think we can over teach the core actually, or over cue it. So I often say that if you're on two hands and two knees and you pick up a hand and an opposite knee, what happens in your middle? yeah, it just does its thing. So I think possibly what we need to

to do is our body lead us a little bit as well and listen to the body and the way it responds to not just exercise, but listen out again to that thing. If I'm running around everywhere and more haste less speed and I'm breaking things, well tune in, maybe it's time to slow down a bit. And I think maybe we see things differently as we age because we think I should be able to do all of that. I should be able to fit this in. I should be able to do this.

I haven't achieved everything I want to achieve today, why is that? Well actually, you've just set yourself too much to do and so you've run around like a lunatic. And I was always quite fascinated in the past where I'd have a client who'd say, I'm really stressed, I'm really stressed and I'm thinking like, yeah but she doesn't even have a job so why is she stressed? So she'd put in, I'm having my nails done at 10 and I'm rushing for a lunch appointment and then I'm rushing to the hairdressers and then I'm rushing to meet a friend. All like...

Ceri Barnes (38:46.423)
you know, things that we'd say, great, what a lovely life. She's packed too much in, she's running around, she's flinging and swinging and pinging, and she's stressed. So she hasn't got any real external stressors, she's just fitting too much in her life. So maybe we calm down a bit as we get older and think, okay, one thing at a time here, can't fit it all in. But yeah, I think that's true, yeah, more haste, less speed as well.

Sally (38:56.845)
Yeah.

Sally (39:09.731)
Yeah.

Sally (39:15.168)
Yeah, think we can also get addicted to stress, can't we? And I think that's often why we pack out our diaries, because there's that sense of like, well, if I'm not doing one thing after another, I'm going to be bored. And I think we try and avoid boredom, don't we, by packing our diaries out, avoid stillness. But I think if we can get used to stillness, get used to being with our own company, and maybe look at where that comes from, what narrative is informing.

Ceri Barnes (39:20.939)
Yeah.

Ceri Barnes (39:34.887)
Yeah, yeah.

Sally (39:43.404)
that inability to be with yourself, especially if there are certain feelings within that that you don't want to face, that can be quite interesting.

Ceri Barnes (39:49.685)
That's true, that's really true. Very true, Sally. We're not used to stillness and just being with ourself. I think when I was younger, I always wanted to be with people all the time. Now I can't wait to be on my own sometimes. So I'll be like, my husband will say, do want to come for a walk with me and the dogs? I'm like, well one of our dogs doesn't really walk now, she's elderly.

And I'm going, no, no, I'm fine, thank you. And I'm wandering around the woods on my own because it's total therapy. And I need that space. I'm with people a lot, so that's to be fair. But I think teaching people to nurture themselves with giving themselves that space and time to just think, am I breathing properly? know, are my shoulders tense? Is my throat tight?

and jaw clenching and all of that stuff. We don't check in with ourselves very often and that's, I don't know why we see that, it's almost like people see if I just sit quietly for a minute, I'm being lazy, which you're not. You're giving your body time to just have a little reset so that the rest of your day is probably gonna be more productive as a result. But it's this treadmill, isn't it? This hamster wheel.

can't get off, can't get off, can't get off. But if we don't get off sometimes, it's really gonna exacerbate any symptoms that come along with being highly stressed. It's fascinating, it is fascinating. It's this pressure, and I just believe that this pressure is worse now than ever it's been. And maybe people recognize the feeling of stress more since the pandemic.

Sally (41:15.478)
Yeah. Yeah.

Sally (41:26.54)
Yes.

Ceri Barnes (41:43.205)
because even if you didn't think you were stressed, probably were. It was pretty tough. But it's almost like we recognise that feeling. I own that now, that's part of my life. It doesn't have to be. We're all going to have stress sometimes, obviously, but have we got comfortable with feeling that level of stress? I don't know.

Sally (42:04.108)
Yeah, we do get used to it. We get acclimatised to the sensation of stress in the body. And it's very odd when it's not there. can actually, in a weird way, ring alarm bells. I mean, I'm kind of going into the therapy side of things now, but there are, especially people who have experienced a lot of trauma in their lives, who have been on high alert their whole life, when they're finally in a safe relationship, they can panic.

Ceri Barnes (42:16.625)
Yeah.

Ceri Barnes (42:23.155)
you

Sally (42:29.58)
It's like, and they try and sabotage it very unconsciously, obviously, and totally me, totally me in the early stages of my relationship. I'm not used to this stability. I was always in and out of highly dramatic situations. And then when my husband came along, I was like, what is this stabling force? I don't recognize it. So I was constantly trying to poke the bear, you know, and really mess things up. But yeah, I mean, that's a whole other.

Ceri Barnes (42:33.317)
No.

Ceri Barnes (42:51.855)
Yeah.

Sally (42:58.258)
whole other subject really that definitely informs our menopause symptom severity. What I wanted to speak to you a little bit about now Kerry was backs. Why do backs go wrong in midlife? I mean is there something about

Ceri Barnes (43:00.305)
Yeah.

Sally (43:20.588)
womanhood? Is there something about the shape of our spines? Is there something about emotions? Is there something around carrying the mental load or just not using our bodies properly? What have you seen in your explorations around backs?

Ceri Barnes (43:38.331)
think people that have got maybe mild back issues or muscular issues, much of this is driven from lifestyle and much of that is driven from sitting down all the time because our bodies aren't designed to sit down all the time. So that doesn't help. So I think that then...

causes us an issue in that the muscles that support the back and the glutes, the bottom muscles become like a pair of cushions, there's no activity in them. The back muscles get really weak, we've got no strength in our core. know, and this across the board then goes into pelvic floor issues, is lack of movement. So sitting down, lack of movement, lack of strength in the body itself can be a really big issue.

In terms of niggles, know, not necessarily real mechanical problems. You know, our hip flexors can get really tight, hamstrings can be tight, obviously the whole body's connected. And it just has a bit of a snowball effect really that the longer we sit down, the weaker we make our muscles, the less active we are.

the less lubricant in the joints. know, when we get up in the morning and we're stiff or we get out of a chair, we just need the synovial fluid to wash around the joints to kind of get them moving. And we have less synovial fluid as we get older. So we can experience stiffness unless we move lots. So I think lack of movement, sitting down too much, weakness in muscles is the sort of first stage where I see people, my back's not good, my back's not good. And then we've got...

the body in that condition potentially and we're trying to do things that the body's not fit for so we go and remove a piece of furniture and people will often say my back just went and I'll often say your back just won't just go it's like a build-up and it will be the straw that breaks the camel's back you know something is normally brewing

Ceri Barnes (45:50.505)
and you've just done something and it was way too much for what your body could cope with. So they've done something because their body isn't fit for purpose. That could be going to the gym and suddenly decided they're going to deadlift some ridiculous weights. So these issues are all really, common. I'd say the large percentage of people with niggly backs just have those kind of issues going on.

then you've got lots of things to consider genetic issues and how you're actually made. So like for me, I've got quite a level of hypermobility and because of that, I am more prone to have disc issues because there isn't the stability there that there would be if you weren't hypermobile. So I will see people that are hypermobile having disc issues and shift.

vertigo shift issues and things like that. Not just people that are hypermobile, but I think we could probably look back and think, what's our body type? What's our makeup? Age, obviously, is a factor because sadly we don't work so well as we got older, always. And I think poor posture is a really big driver. Again, that's sitting. It's not going to help that at all.

I think those are where a lot of the problems really stem from. Some people are just really unlucky and they will have disc issues. They'll just come out of nowhere. If you scanned the average midlife woman's back, there'd be all manner of stuff going on which we don't know about. It's just whether we're symptomatic or not. And I think the thing is people don't do anything about their bodies until something crops up.

when they do need to do something about it. So I think it's lack of planning for aging and actually, you know, preventative measures for our back is what we all need to do. And you think of the spine, you know, it's, unless you're like me, really short, you know, it's quite a long thing. And, you know, all of our limbs hang off our spine and everything.

Sally (47:54.542)
Mmm.

Ceri Barnes (48:12.49)
hangs off our spine. And so if our spine isn't stable and the muscles are not stable in our core, center, back, we're going to be more vulnerable. So we probably put ourselves in a vulnerable state. might do, suddenly decide to do, you know, get the old fashioned lawn mower out. We haven't done that for years. That's a, that's a great one. Pick up a plant pot, you know, gardening, not injuries, but I was gardening, my back's gone. So I think it's about listening to your body and actually thinking, what is my body fit to do?

and what's it not fit to do. But yeah, I think ultimately poor posture, sitting, deconditioned bodies, along with bit of aging is probably the most common stuff going on there. And then the unlucky people, something mechanical, or they've just done way too much for what their back can cope with.

Sally (48:57.293)
Yeah.

Sally (49:04.47)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think definitely for me, what caused my issues, well, mine actually started in my 20s. I was a beauty therapist doing massage. And I think there was quite a deep load on that. I think there's some emotional stuff going on as well, which we won't talk about today, but especially in that kind of pelvic bowl, the lower back, the sacral chakra, which is our

Ceri Barnes (49:15.303)
Bye.

Ceri Barnes (49:27.822)
Yes.

Sally (49:30.99)
sexuality, if there's any kind of issues around being a woman or something, any kind of boundary violation in that area, so much can go wrong with that sacral stuff. But sitting, I know definitely, especially, so I've now got a standing desk, I'm standing at the moment and it's been an absolute godsend for me. I can go up and down, up and down, my heart's content, shift around, move around, keep moving and I always say

Ceri Barnes (49:32.901)
and

Ceri Barnes (49:51.886)
it's a idea.

Sally (49:59.566)
You have to move more as you get older. Move more. Even if it's small movements, pottering around.

Ceri Barnes (50:03.015)
Yeah, like movement is medicine. Movement is improvement. Movement is everything. And I know that if I don't move very much, that's when I get up and think, I'm, you the first thing I do in the morning is go for a walk because that makes my back feel better because it's stiff in the mornings or whatever.

Sally (50:10.83)
Hmm.

Sally (50:20.984)
Yeah.

Sally (50:29.71)
Yeah.

Ceri Barnes (50:29.742)
I think as well, what's really important, and I've found this quite difficult, the sort of changes to your body as you age. When your body's been pretty highly tuned and it's been good, it's quite difficult to accept those changes, but then I think we have to accept them. We have to accept there's other ways to do things. And we have to accept that there's only one person that can look after this body, and it's you. And I think it's very difficult.

if you feel like, I've got to be doing, you know, whatever is the latest trend, et cetera. But I just think, you know, accepting that your body is different forever is difficult, you know, back. But to be fair, if you manage, I've managed my back really well over the last 10 years, and it's had its comings and goings, but I always feel really good when I think I've done the right things, I'm managing it well. can't, you wouldn't know, you know, if you watch me.

Sally (51:13.206)
Yeah.

Ceri Barnes (51:29.285)
teaching, whatever. But it's such a pleasure to know that you've taken control. And I think what is really important message is when people say, I've got this, you know, it's going to be awful now for everyone. I say, no, no, don't make that assumption. You can make things a lot better. You might not be saying goodbye to that condition, but you can make it better by, you know, sit down desk. I mean, the amount of people that I recommend.

Sally (51:52.419)
Yeah.

Ceri Barnes (51:57.711)
to do that and they go, yeah, this has really made a difference. But it's lifestyle changes, isn't it, basically. Small things, tiny things can make such a big difference. But yeah, you know, we're not gonna have the same body that we had, you know, in the way that it looks, in the way that it feels. That's the bit we don't like so much.

Sally (52:04.566)
Yeah, absolutely.

Sally (52:10.455)
Yeah.

Sally (52:20.046)
Yeah, there's definitely a sense of having to accept that change and having to lean into that. But there's also a sense of empowerment as well. Like, OK, I recognize that things are changing, but within that, what can I do to support myself? And then so sort of gentle investigation around what the solutions might be. Education is so powerful. You we're living in the information age.

Ceri Barnes (52:28.197)
Yes.

Ceri Barnes (52:39.01)
to.

Sally (52:48.77)
brilliant, but nothing replaces actually going to see someone because that information really lands more when you're in the room with someone. I think it's a lot more visceral when you are in the room with someone with a practitioner like yourself.

Ceri Barnes (52:57.739)
Mm.

Ceri Barnes (53:01.524)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, nobody wants to hear the negatives, dear, your back's really terrible. Gosh, what a shame. You're never going to be able to do exercise. What we want to hear is, okay, there's an issue there. It's not uncommon, but there's so much you can do. It's the same with menopause itself, isn't it? Perimenopause. You know, it's not great.

Sally (53:25.614)
Hmm.

Ceri Barnes (53:27.744)
but there is so much that we can do. It doesn't always feel like that. We all have those times where we think, God, I'm really fed up about that. I can't even do that. I remember going through like, God, I can't even do that now. And that's another thing crossed off my list. okay, so find something new to do. Find another activity or another way of doing it. Actually, it's made my teaching so much better because I've been able to...

Sally (53:45.965)
Yeah.

Ceri Barnes (53:55.763)
understand more as I age what happens to other people's bodies is if my body was still perfect I probably still wouldn't understand why my client Jane has got a bad back. So what's the matter with you? You know I think it's good for me to have experienced everything that I've experienced so that I can help other people more. There you go, that's another privilege of aging. You might not feel like it is but actually you're learning every day of school day.

you're learning about what you might be experiencing is what other people might be experiencing and that enables you to help them even more and to be sympathetic, empathetic and to give them hope. Because if people are not given hope and positivity, they're just going to give up. They're just, I'm not going to exercise because everything hurts.

Sally (54:43.384)
Yeah.

Sally (54:47.03)
Yeah, yeah, definitely. feel like now I'm getting to that stage in my life where I can start to see how moving towards those wisdom years, those kind of elder woman years, are going to be really cool. You know, I'm just getting that, getting a sense of that now. It's like, yes.

Ceri Barnes (54:59.328)
Thanks

Yeah, I mean, you think like in some parts of the world, you know, how women are revered, aren't they? The older wiser, everybody goes to them because she knows it all. I think there's something really nice about being in that position where people trust you more because, know, she's been around the block a little bit. I could ask her, that's great.

Sally (55:23.032)
Yeah.

Sally (55:27.918)
That's exactly how I feel. Kerry, it's been so lovely chatting to you. We're coming to the end of our conversation now. I really inspired and I hope the listeners have been feeling inspired by you and your positivity and your wisdom, especially around Pilates and the back and how we can reframe our menopausal experience. So I'd love for you to share with our listeners how you, what have you got on offer? People have been inspired.

Ceri Barnes (55:40.736)
Thank you.

Sally (55:54.99)
By you if they don't live near you, how can they work with you if they do live near you things like that?

Ceri Barnes (56:01.438)
Well I'm fairly scattered about in what I offer. I do have a program called the years of change which is it's kind of a written and recorded book I suppose almost it's a website so it's got covers everything sort of holistically that you could do in terms of helping your menopause lifestyle changes you know everything to do with bone health, pelvic health

nutrition, exercise, so there is that there. And I work with people one-to-one or group training or corporately in terms of menopause. My studio offers classes, I offer one-to-ones, I do consultations with people for whatever it is. I spend a lot of time in the supermarket chatting to people actually, so. But I've also got a platform called Workout Angel, which is a massive library of

Sally (56:49.955)
Yeah.

Ceri Barnes (56:58.054)
workouts that you can do at home and Pilates and stretching and bar type things, you all sorts of stuff. And then I've got another website which is Kerry Barnes Wellness. I've kind of put everything under a big umbrella recently with a new website called Kerry.life so you can go there and you can say which piece of Kerry do I want. So and I do offer virtual sessions as well, one-to-one sessions. So I'm kind of

I'm kind of available for lots of different things really. Anything wellness, fitness, Pilates related. I'm pretty passionate about the pelvic floor exercise and health side of things as well. I feel like I love making a difference. So yeah, I am reachable in slightly different forms and different avenues.

Sally (57:50.926)
amazing and it's Kerry with a C it's C E R I isn't it is that the Welsh way of

Ceri Barnes (57:53.872)
Mmm.

It is a Welsh way and when my parents were alive they would constantly remind me that, you know that short for Caridwen don't you? Yes but you didn't christen me that so I am not Caridwen. Sounds a bit much. Yeah so it is, but I've spent my whole life being called Saris, Saris, Cheri, but yeah it's Kerry and it's...

Sally (58:18.112)
I did wonder, I did wonder if it was Ceri and then when you said Kerry I was like okay it's Kerry.

Ceri Barnes (58:24.284)
I know, I know, I don't know, I should just spell it K-E-double-R-Y and everybody would know what it's, I don't know to pronounce it. But yeah, it's a Welsh Kerry.

Sally (58:31.854)
Oh no, I love it. Love it, love it. Listen, thank you so much for sharing this hour with us. It's been amazing.

Ceri Barnes (58:40.38)
My pleasure. It's been really lovely. Sometimes the conversation just leads you off what you least expect it and that's how it should be. It's great. So thank you for having me.

Sally (58:50.102)
Yeah, very natural and organic. you're very welcome, lovely. See you later.

Ceri Barnes (58:55.312)
Thank you, Sally.