179 How to be a Highly Sensitive Person with ChaNan Bonser

Join me and ChaNan Bonser in our rich and deep-dive conversation about how to be a highly sensitive person in the world.

ChaNan shares her personal journey of understanding her sensitivity, how it has shaped her life and work, and the importance of creating space for oneself during challenging times. In this conversation we talk about:

🌱 Understanding Sensitivity: The Sponge Effect

🌱 Personal Experiences with Sensitivity and Menopause

🌱 The Journey of Self-Discovery and Healing

🌱 Creating Space for Sensitivity

🌱 Navigating Menopause as an Initiatory Gateway

🌱 The Role of Sensitivity in Therapy

🌱 Exploring the Origins of Sensitivity

🌱 Advantages of Being Sensitive

🌱 Harnessing Sensitivity for Self-Mastery

🌱 Understanding Grounding and Connection to Nature

🌱 The Role of Imagination in Grounding

🌱 Techniques for Regaining Equilibrium

🌱 Exploring the Concept of Masking

🌱 The Balance of Authenticity and Safety

🌱 Patterns of Behavior and Self-Discovery

🌱 Embracing Sensitivity and Self-Compassion

Chanan’s Links:

Website: www.chananbonser.com 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chananbonser/  

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chanan-bonser-a46a2024/ 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/chanan.bonser 

Sally's Links:

[Free Guide] Healing The Trauma Underlying Your Menopause Symptom Severity:  https://www.sallygarozzo.com/healingtraumatheguide

[On Demand Masterclass 2 hours] How To Heal The Trauma Underlying Your Menopause Symptom Severity [£17] https://www.sallygarozzo.com/healingtrauma

[On Demand Workshop] Redefine Your Values at Menopause and Live Life in Alignment With Them [£27] https://www.sallygarozzo.com/redefine 

[Online Practitioners Diploma - Self Paced] Menopause Wellbeing Practitioner [£127] https://www.sallygarozzo.com/meno

[One to One] Transformational 30 Day Rewire (Includes RTT) [£447]: https://www.sallygarozzo.com/rapid-transformational-therapist

Instagram:  https://www.instagram.com/sallygarozzomindmentor

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sallygarozzo/

Send me a voice clip via What’s App - https://wa.me/message/FTARBMO7CRLEL1

Transcript

Sally (00:29.742)
So my guest today is Chanan Bonsa. Chanan is a highly experienced therapist and trainer who is dedicated to helping others find their own unique way. She works with clients all over the world, both personally and in an organizational context, listening deeply to the stories that the body holds while facilitating a clear

ChaNan (00:32.312)
Yeah.

Sally (00:57.592)
deep and embodied relationship for her clients, which fosters resilience and calm within them. Chan-An holds regular dreaming circles too, in which participants develop a deeper connection to earth and their interrelationship with our human selves through embodied imagination and creative prompts. Her online course, Reclaiming Sensitivity, helps folk

who are highly sensitive learn how their sensitivity is a part of their senses and how it contributes to everyday overwhelm. She teaches techniques to help become more robust and resilient with the outcome of learning to harness sensitivity as a super sensory power. So Chanan, welcome to the podcast today. Happy new year to you, lovely. How are you doing?

ChaNan (01:52.482)
Good, thank you and happy new year to you too. Thank you very much for having me on.

Sally (01:56.61)
I'm really, really excited to speak with you today because I've been thinking a lot about sensitivity because of my special interest in that link between complex trauma and menopause symptom severity. And one of those symptoms seems to be increased sensitivity, which can really tend to make women feel as if they are going absolutely stark, raving mad.

And you know, the dial is just turned up to the max on everything. And so that's why I wanted to bring you on because I listened to your podcast episode with the lovely Kate Codrington when I was trying to learn more about sensitivity. And so, yeah, let's have a chat. for those people who don't really fully understand what sensitivity is, I was wondering perhaps if you could highlight a few things about what...

what is a highly sensitive person, what's going on, what's happening, what might they be experiencing?

ChaNan (02:59.704)
Good question. So overwhelm is the first thing. And quite often within sensitivity and degrees of sensitivity, we forget that our sensitivity is actually part of our sensory system. And as such, it's hardwired into our nervous system. So it's...

Sally (03:17.816)
Right.

ChaNan (03:23.704)
So you you can be auditory sensitivity like really overwhelmed by sounds, by sites, by people, by places and then there's the emotional sensitivity and that response where your empathic response if you like has gone really quite far out of your body so you're picking up on the radius around you of everything emotionally that's going on.

And this is the bit that can be really linked back to trauma, sheltered trauma, anything, stress, repeated patterns, whatever. But if there's been something that's made you feel unsafe at some point, naturally we spread ourselves quite wide looking for that trigger point. And that can really amplify, well that does amplify because then what we're picking up is everything in our radius. And so it comes back to that.

you know, there's a frequent thing I hear is like, well, I'm a sponge. I don't know what's mine, what's other people's. And that's because that your filter system or our filter systems have gone so wide that it's, that we're completely overwhelmed. And of course, what then happens is then that triggers our nervous system again on another level. So for me, this is the way I relate to sensitivity. And it feels like

Sally (04:41.518)
Mm.

ChaNan (04:49.868)
it feels like it's so linked into our unique human wiring and how many different ways we can be wired basically.

Sally (05:02.434)
how many different ways we can be wired. Yes. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. That makes so much sense. So I love what you said about, you know, we become like a sponge. It's like this filter system and you're right. It does. And I think with the hormone changes as well that we're going through during menopause, especially that roller coaster in perimenopause with the ups and downs, which can be an absolute nightmare. I it was.

ChaNan (05:04.414)
Wired. Sorry.

ChaNan (05:26.436)
gosh!

Sally (05:30.744)
For me, kind of, like not knowing, just not knowing how I was gonna feel from one day to the next. And then these like surges of anger and not being able to watch anything on the telly without bursting into tears and things like that. And just walking into a room and being so tuned into what everyone is, you know, everyone's energy. Like for me recently, stepped into a room and I could just feel this chaos. was like, my God, people in here need help.

ChaNan (05:59.042)
Really? Well, totally. it's I mean, and that is, you know, that's that adds to the perimenopause, you know, so if you're in that perimenopausal state of feeling like you're going completely nuts, and, you know, I was very, I'm very similar to you in perimenopause. And then it's and then add on the sensitivity and it's just like one

Sally (06:00.259)
I just wanted to run away. Yeah.

ChaNan (06:24.562)
overwhelmed trigger after another after another after another that leads into this complete vicious circle vicious cycle of which way's up which way's down I've got I haven't got a clue

Sally (06:36.302)
Okay, so it's almost like the compass is just spinning. We can't make decisions very well. We can't lock onto our true north. We can't discern what's ours, what's other people's. And so within that, there's a whole load of learning, which I'm sure we'll get to. Okay, so what was your experience of perimenopause and menopause and sensitivity? Like, how did you?

ChaNan (06:38.84)
Mmm.

No, no.

Sally (07:05.632)
realize you are a sensitive person. What has been your journey with sensitivity?

ChaNan (07:10.84)
Okay, so I'll start with that bit and then go into the main paraminopause and menopause. So I've always been sensitive. I've always been told I've been too sensitive, know, too emotional. Come on, stop being so sensitive. That was a classic thing I was being told, either by my parents or by my early partners in life. So it's like, come on, you're imagining it. Don't be so silly. And it's like, no, I wasn't imagining it. I was totally sensitive.

Sally (07:22.446)
you

ChaNan (07:40.79)
And was very lucky in my early 20s, I went traveling that took me completely out of my comfort zone. And as a result of that, I could shed the, that, the good menopausal symptom, word just disappeared. Shed who I needed to be, know, who I thought I was in the world. This projected image of,

Sally (08:01.102)
You could shed the...

ChaNan (08:09.644)
This is me, this is who I'm going to be. I'm going to be, you know, working in hotel and catering for the rest of my life, get married to 2.2 children, da da da da da, all the rest of it. expectations of who I should be. There was a specific word and I can't find it, but there you go. But I could actually play around with who I was. And in the shedding the expectations of my, you know, my family at home, my familial expectations.

I was really able to find out more of who I was and understood that there was something about my wiring that made me very sensitive to environment, to energies, especially environment and energy. So that's how I really understood at first is it was the landscape almost started speaking to me and me feeling landscapes in my body. And because I was so

you know, in so many different, well, I was literally in different worlds at some point. I think my parents thought I was having a psychotic breakdown, but I wasn't. I was just exploring different realms of territories. And then when I came back to the UK some three and a half years later, I was really lucky again to find a community of people and some brilliant teachers who went, ha, this is what's going on with you. And they taught me about healing.

They taught me about understanding energy. They taught me about that. And that sort of took me straight into my role of training as a healer. So I've been working sort of in the healing arts since I was 28, basically, or before that, but in a training way, learning since I was 28. And within that came more nuance, more depth, more understanding and more...

more, okay this is it and this is what I'm feeling and then this awareness of when I started training actually in body work, this is everything I'm feeling on the outside, this is what's going on in the inside and this is what's going on with the person, it was like a missing jigsaw piece because before it was all energy work and I was out of my body. So coming to the body was a key part for me and then from there I just started

Sally (10:26.605)
Right.

ChaNan (10:34.738)
listening to myself and my clients and understanding what was happening. And I'm quite a visual person and again, very sensory person. And so this started to weave in and together with the trainings that was learning, the people I was teaching, every single opportunity is like an opportunity for me to learn more. Because the more I learn, the more I realize how little I know.

Sally (11:03.766)
Yeah.

ChaNan (11:03.956)
It's like, yeah, it's one of those. And there I was thinking, okay, you know, late thirties, early forties, getting to, I didn't know I was perimonopausal. I thought I was going absolutely bonkers. I was off the scale, angry. I couldn't be around people. The slightest thing would trigger me. then I picked up a book and it was Susan Reed's book about menopause and

Sally (11:06.51)
you

ChaNan (11:34.41)
Everything she was writing about was, that's me. That's me down to a T. And it was such a relief. And from that point on, you know, I was creating such a negative space around me. No one wanted to be around me. So I was, I was creating space, but a negative space. And so with the help of my family, you know, we all went on a very educated process when they would say, you need space, you know, you need space.

For our safety you need space, go and lie down. And the only thing they would be allowed to do is literally open the door and throw in chocolate or bring me a cup of tea. So, mmm.

Sally (12:04.055)
Mmm.

Sally (12:11.694)
Wow, your family sound very, well they sound you know progressive, they sound like they do the research, they do the learning and they really wanted to support you to basically help themselves. You know it's wonderful that they had that, they had that foresight to give you what you needed and they could see.

ChaNan (12:29.591)
Really.

Sally (12:38.242)
what you needed was that space just to sort of decompress and be in your own bubble and kind of work it all out. Because I think that's the thing about sensitivity, isn't it? I know from my experience, I'm definitely a highly sensitive person like you. I completely relate to most things that you've said there, especially about when I was growing up, stop being so sensitive, don't overthink it. It's like, do you realise who you're telling that to?

ChaNan (13:07.317)
Hahaha

Sally (13:08.078)
I am gonna overthink it, right? And that's what I do. And I think actually that is a superpower. It helps me discern, it helps me make decisions. And I think when we recognize these traits as positives rather than negatives, it's really helpful. But anyway, going back to what I was saying, yeah, hard relate with everything that you've said there to do with kind of, you know, experience of it. I had a...

I have dipped my toe in the waters of, you know, deep healing, embodiment, energy work, all of that, but didn't really relate it to sensitivity until I came into menopause. And then I feel like menopause is like, almost like the magnet that has pulled every single healing modality into, into like,

reality I suppose you could say or given it meaning it's given everything meaning yeah

ChaNan (14:08.364)
Really.

Yeah, completely relate to that. I suppose I liken my menopause to an initiatory gateway. mean, it's all the thing, it's one of my clients has said to me a while ago, she said, as she approached her menopause, she said, how are you taking your menopause as a real gateway to work with through every single step of it?

And I'm lucky that I'm in the privileged position to be able to do that. I'm self-employed. I work from home a lot. I have lot of space, a lot of land. I can really listen to myself. And I'm lucky that my family are very supportive within that. So I don't have a nine to five job. I'm not accountable to employers. And I'm so privileged within that. due to the nature of my work, it's like,

got to keep an eye on the trauma I'm carrying because that's what perimenopause did for me. was sort of like it's all those underground layers that I didn't know that was triggering me the whole time. It was my body shouting at me saying you need space out there in your energy field but you need space in your body so that when you get to this place of menopause of this gateway to become the magnet

is that I have to have space to bring everything in so it just doesn't completely overwhelm me.

Sally (15:40.044)
Hmm, yeah, makes sense. And I relate to what you've said there about keeping an eye on your trauma and keeping an eye on those triggers. And menopause for me has been that very, very opportunistic, invitational time of my life where...

you know, as a therapist as well like you, we can't bring, it's not helpful to bring our baggage into our relationships with our clients. And so it does in a way force you to sort of stay on top of everything. It's like a baptism of fire in a way. Coming back to your life, have you, did you design your life that way on purpose?

ChaNan (16:21.568)
No, I'm, again, I think because traveling gave me such a unique aspect, and I mean, I lived in Southeast Asia for nearly three years. So it gave me a very, a very unique way of relating to life in terms of having had that space to explore who I was. And then when I came back to the UK,

and found the healing community rather than, you I was living in central London in the hospitality industry. So to come back and discover community, alternative thinkers, whatever you want to call them, sort of that level of relationships and finding, you know, meeting my husband, coming together.

and his unique outtake on life. We're very lucky and he lived in a Teepee village in Spain for a long time. we've been immersed in a world that has been very much out of the box. And due to that, I think we've just been very good at listening to ourselves.

Sally (17:33.709)
Yeah.

ChaNan (17:44.528)
and us as a family in terms of actually, okay, so what works for us? Where, what supports us, what doesn't? And, you we've both done regular nine to five jobs and realized the pressure that has put us on. But I've always known that actually healing is where I've wanted to be ever since I was 25. It was like, actually, this is, I've got something to do here as a healer.

And then it's only been sort of later in life. It's like, right, especially that, you know, hitting the later perimenopause, yes, actually it was COVID. When that really came, when COVID came along, it's like, well, I can't do my clients as online as I was face to face, you know, with that level of intensity. I have to take time out. If I don't, I will absolutely burn out because COVID made my work go.

Sally (18:31.66)
Yeah.

ChaNan (18:39.768)
global in a very short amount of time because all of a sudden everyone could access online and people were referring me time and time and time again. So at that point I completely redesigned everything and I'm like, right, okay, I'm taking one, with the week of the new moon off every month, I don't do any client practices. And then, right, actually, how do I keep an eye on this to ensure I've still got my creative process? How do, and I'm scaling back again this year with my client work.

So I'm to take sort of regular months, chunks out of time so I can actually come back to my creative process and listening to who I am now. And again, I'm in this unique position to be able to do this, this privileged position where I can. And I'm so lucky that, you know, yeah, I'm just so lucky that I've got that really.

Sally (19:32.35)
Yeah and you are lucky but I think also as well somewhere along the line you have probably created that from your superpower, your sensitivity superpower you know right from an early age where you went traveling, were finding out about yourself you know the people that you meet as well I don't think there's any coincidence in that I think you you magnetize the right people to you and on some level

ChaNan (19:41.016)
Hmm.

Sally (19:57.326)
you know, probably a deep unconscious level, you probably designed that life for yourself where you could give yourself that space to give yourself what you needed really. So I think kudos to you and we can all learn from you as well. think that's, you know, even if it's just giving ourselves as much space as we can, a little bit of space, perhaps we might not be able to go and live in the countryside or...

ChaNan (20:09.09)
Yeah.

Sally (20:24.492)
you know, have weeks off per month or whatever some people listening, some people might think, you know what, I'm really inspired by that. I'm going to try and make that happen. But it might just be a little excerpt of time.

ChaNan (20:31.0)
Yeah, I mean it's that magnetism you talk about within Chinese Five Elements, which is one of my huge passions, that this is the orientation behind all the dreaming circles and everything. This is called Wu Wei. So it is actionless actionless action. So it's like by working with your internal aspects deeply.

It's like, how can you rest back into your body? How can you rest back into your nervous system to allow yourself to not so much manifest, it's like, so when the point comes, when you're being given an opportunity left or right, you can, by resting back and not being at the front of your nervous system, not being in that fright or flight response and going, right, it's gotta be that because that's gonna take me that. I'm listening to the current coming from behind me and going, okay, I'm just heading down that way.

So it's, it's, so I, that's the way I like to think of it. And this comes back to my nervous system because you can't do that in a stressed out state. We can't do that if we're overwhelmed. If we're right at the front of our fields, if we're bombarded by energy coming in, how can you do that? You can't. It's like actually it's that exhalation coming back to the body, coming back to the, okay, here I'm going next step and

Sally (21:38.805)
No.

ChaNan (21:57.91)
I'm just going to go that way. Everything, you my pattern would be going right, but my feet want to go left, so I'm going to go left.

Sally (22:06.83)
Okay, so what I'm hearing in all of that is this sort of subtlety that we don't hear when there's a lot of noise in the signal. Yeah, so when we're sort of tuned into our traumas, when we're tuned into social ideals that are not necessarily our own.

ChaNan (22:16.088)
Totally. Yeah.

Sally (22:27.168)
societal norms, traditions that are not really our own, that may be familial, come down the line. You know, there's all that noise in our own personal signal and to hear the signal, which is our true north, our guiding light, we need to, as you say, rest back, become more grounded, more centered, listen to those whispers and feel those light impulses.

or in some cases quite strong impulses that will guide us towards something that we might not necessarily have chosen had we been in that sort of hypervigilant state. So it's all connected, isn't it? You energy is connected to the nervous system. The nervous system is connected to our history, our trauma, our environment. It's all connected. And I think, yeah, seeing it like that.

ChaNan (23:02.85)
Yes.

Sally (23:26.2)
can be overwhelming, but it can also be very guiding, I think, for us. So, where does sensitivity come from? Let's kind of bring it back a little bit. We've spoke a bit about trauma, but from your point of view in the work that you've done, the books that you've read, why are some of us sensitive?

ChaNan (23:40.78)
Ha

Sally (23:53.228)
And why are some of us not sensitive? Like I joke because my husband and one of my friends, I say to them, God, you've got such a strong constitution. Like they can drink alcohol and it doesn't affect them. And I'm like one sniff of alcohol and I'm like, you know, having an anxiety attack.

ChaNan (24:09.592)
To be honest, I have no idea. So that's why I did a little high-pitched giggle when you said, where does sensitivity come from? I have no idea. It does feel like it's just another sense in our body and how some people are, you know, some people are very, very visual. Some people are very auditory. Some people are very taste sensation. Some people are very touch.

Sally (24:17.582)
Ha

Hmm.

ChaNan (24:38.036)
and sensitivity. And I think it's slightly different from our ESP, you know, from that extra sensory perception, our spidey senses. And I feel like if we just put sensitivity in as sort of not, not taking it out of the system, as in, right, that well, there is this sensitivity, but bringing it back in, putting our arm around it. And if

I think everyone is sensitive to a degree, sensitive in a different way, as you say, constitutionally wise. And who knows where that comes from, whether it is something epigenetic, whether it is something in our unique makeup, whether it is, who knows? And I, yeah, I don't think I could, yeah. I don't know.

Sally (25:30.86)
Yeah, that's fine. No, that's fine. And I like what you said there, know, as just an extra sense, I suppose that we all I wonder if we can all train it if we could. Yeah.

ChaNan (25:45.079)
I think so.

I think so having worked with so many people on so many different levels and especially, you know, being in the unique position of training people and training people to be therapists. It's that's really that's very striking is to seeing how how people have different threads, how people bring their different sensitivities, how people bring their different make ups to the work. And it's I find I find that fascinating. So there isn't a.

Sally (26:13.591)
Mm.

ChaNan (26:16.664)
typical box or you know I think just take down the layers and just go okay where is it, who is it, how is it?

Sally (26:26.19)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah and very individual for each person how they experience the world around them Are there any advantages do you think to being sensitive?

ChaNan (26:41.932)
Yes, yes, definitely. Because there's that quality that, for me, that gives us to be a unique listener. That can be, especially when we're not in that overwhelmed state, you know, that can be actually to listen to the deeper things that's underneath. Can understand that the quality of someone might be saying something, but they're feeling something else. And to have that perception within it.

And I love the crossover between creativity and sensitivity as well. And how it's sort of, you know, the image, I'm quite a visual person, but the image of in Harry Potter, the Penseve comes in, you know, when he's looking into this thing and there's a thread that he pulls out with his wand. It's almost sort of like, that's how I quite often feel.

It's like there's this all this stuff going on there and then there'll be one thread that I just sort of go and I've and if I turn my attention to that thread or that colour or that sense or that feeling in my body it's just like oh okay then that brings in that quality to the conversation. So and there's there's so many different different levels of sensitivity but there's so many advantages to it.

Sally (28:10.774)
think for me, what I've experienced in a positive way with my sensitivity is it's given me so much more of an ability to be happier with a lot less. So, you know, just being happy or just feeling that sense of peace with looking at a tree or going for a walk in nature or just sitting on the beach.

I feel like I don't need as much stimulus as a lot of people to reach that baseline of contentment, I suppose. And I think case in point, I went to New York, believe it or not, I coped. I know, it's a bit mad, but I was with my husband. Say again?

ChaNan (28:52.024)
I was going say, that's mad. My toes are curling. My toes are curling at the thought.

Sally (28:59.424)
Yeah, well my husband really wanted to go and I have been before and when I went previously it was quite traumatizing because of the person I was with. I was with an addict. It just wasn't a great experience. So I wanted to go again to sort of reclaim it and heal from it and it was and the fact that I went with my husband was brilliant because he's a real stabling force and

I discovered that I was able to tune out actually. So we went in the busiest time of year. We went at Christmas and it was a lot of sirens. There were a lot of people. But I discovered I could do this sort of tuning out thing and just sort of kind of take in what I wanted to take in and leave out the rest. And I thought that was quite an amazing skill that I had.

developed, especially on the plane as well, because I was a bit worried about being restless on a long haul flight. And I managed, again, managed to sort of put myself into kind of a self-hypnosis, really, and go very, very deep within my body and find where the pleasure was.

in inside my body, like, you know, I could this this fabric, I'm really enjoying this fabric. Or in those moments where you've got sirens going past you, and it's really overwhelming overwhelming. It's like I could I could feel the security in my husband's hand, you know, holding hands. It's like I just was able to focus on that. And I think that's a real

superpower, I think that's a skill that we can learn and also what I love about working with sensitivity is it's a training isn't it, like you're training yourself to work with your nervous system, work with your energy, work with your perceptions, your senses and in that it's almost like going to the gym, going to the gym in your your sensory world, training yourself to

ChaNan (31:08.482)
Mm-hmm.

Sally (31:13.774)
to work with what you've got there. And in that sense, again, it's a real advantage. Because we get that mastery over ourselves as well. That I think could be really useful for just dealing with the shit that comes through life.

ChaNan (31:32.332)
really. And that that is something that's really clear is sort of actually, you do have to work at it with you know, you do you do have to work at it, the mastery doesn't come as a natural thing. It's that process of, of actually, I guess weaving, weaving it back into a nervous system. So it can be that that really supportive baseline of

a sensory process, you know, all the senses you just described then, you know, the auditory one, the touch, the finding the places within yourself that actually can resource you within your nervous system so that you feel, I can enjoy this. I can, because I've got those processes, I've got those, the things around me that are keeping me grounded and keeping me aligned to almost like the tap root of your nervous system, that deep rooted aspect.

Sally (32:26.294)
Yeah, yeah. You mentioned a word there, grounded, and we do bandy this word around quite a lot, but in your opinion, what is being grounded? I know there's like walking barefoot and that, I kind of see that as being earthed, but I think that being grounded is something slightly different. What's your take on being grounded?

ChaNan (32:51.576)
I think I've got my... Okay, it's interesting you said that, you're feeling that Earth is slightly different to grounded. If I, know, what came straight to my visual senses as you're speaking about that was almost like this Venn diagram between being earthed and grounded. And I will look for the sweet spot between the two because I return constantly to the landscape around me. I return constantly to what's outside my window. I return constantly to Earth.

for my grounding. And my part of my grounding is actually I've got a really, really big imaginary tail. So I have three legs. So, and that helps me, helps my nervous system come back to earth. it's so if I feel myself getting too far forward, and that's something that for me, I'm ungrounded because we can't be grounded if I'm actually, you you can see, but obviously people on the podcast can't, but I'm actually moving forward as you speak about that.

And if you come forward, you're standing almost like on your tiptoes. So how can you be grounded? So it's like actually resting back. And what happens if I imagine going back to my ancient roots of coming out with water. So from my sacrum, I have a tail that comes down and there is my tail right on earth. And it's not like a little floaty tail going off. It's like a really big amphibious. So it gives me a really big wiggle as I walk and that

gives me a third leg so it gives me my tap root back down to earth. So that's how I take being grounded, it's being in a place where I'm not too much in my head, I'm not out of my body, I'm like okay I can feel my breath, my breath is coming in, I can feel my sacrum, I can feel my sit bones, I can feel my spine, might even feel my spine up against a tree and roots coming out from underneath me.

So it's, it is that there isn't quite, there is a thing about being earthed and walking barefoot, which is one thing. And for me, I think it is really that sweet spot of between the two of actually how am I earthed? How is my tap root? You know, am I in connection with earth? That's my grounding because

ChaNan (35:19.83)
I become ungrounded when I feel myself as an individual, feel myself as like, you know, ch'inan, human being popping around. But actually, if I come back to landscape, I'm part of the web of life. I'm part of the ecology. I'm part of humans as not as a unique species on Earth, but as a cooperative species on Earth. And therefore,

gives me a greater context to feel my life around. I know I've just gone off on on a fair tangent and it's just for the numerous other concepts but it's it's like I can't you know I have to be part of the ecology because if I'm out of the ecology I'm ungrounded.

Sally (35:59.618)
Love it!

Sally (36:09.516)
Yeah, okay, so I think that's a very unique perspective and something that was obviously your life experiences has shaped that within you and the choices that you and who you are has shaped that and obviously, you where you live, really, you've chosen to live in that space so that you can be connected with.

that nature element, obviously nature and landscape is so important to you. feels like that's incredibly fundamental to who you are to keep you connected to nature. Because we all talk about the collective and connection and belonging and I do as a hypnotherapist as well. I'm always sort of bringing that up. Because I think when we feel disconnected, we feel depressed.

But I suppose the question then becomes, well, what is connection? And you've just spoken really beautifully about what connection is to you. You know, having that tail. And I get that. And I see this big sort of long dinosaur tail, like you say, this, yeah. Dragon tail, yeah, yeah, exactly. Brilliant, yeah.

ChaNan (37:19.256)
exactly that. dragon tail actually, that's where I get to. Man of Paws or woman, you're not going to mess with me, I've got a dragon tail.

Sally (37:30.326)
Right, right, as well, that breathing fire and that sort of met those boundaries that the dragon sort of blows in with its fiery breath. So yeah, it's one way of doing connection, isn't it? What you have described and for somebody else, might be connection to all the buzz of a city or whatever, but it's different for everybody.

ChaNan (37:48.759)
Yes.

ChaNan (37:54.582)
Yeah. And there's something within that. Yes, I'm again, I'm really lucky to live in the middle of nowhere. So I don't have many humans around me, which for me is, it gives me great pleasure. Just because I like that, that breathing space. But I teach people who are living in cities, you know, this is actually how to bring that imaginal world of being connected to the landscape around you, it back in. So it's like it's

It's actually how can you do that? How can we do that? If we are in the cities, where do we find that connection to landscape around us?

Sally (38:32.738)
Yeah, yeah, and the imagination is a powerful tool. You you can really think about those landscapes. You can have picture postcards of different landscapes around you in your office or your space at home and really breathe them in and let them into your, you know, your third eye. The imagination is so incredibly powerful. We really must utilize it, I think, when we're talking about grounding and...

ChaNan (38:57.24)
Again, we can't use the imagination if we're in a stressed out state, if our nervous system is on flight of light. It's like we can't get there. Or we can, but it's disjointed. So it's actually how do we come back? How do we rest back? How do we bring in the space within our nervous system so that our imagination can go, okay, how can we dream in that slightly different reality?

Sally (39:26.382)
And what do you recommend for people who are sort of stuck in that hyper vigilant state just to bring themselves back to a little bit of equilibrium? Are there tools and techniques or thought processes that you recommend for people?

ChaNan (39:44.308)
I, if, if therapy, if, if the finances afford a good therapist, a really good therapist, one who's, who can help hold you in the process, I would really recommend that. And there's so many different types of things out there. And, but a key one, if you can't, that's, that for me is just simply, if it's available, sort of placing a hand on the part of the body that where there is tension or where you feel your breath is going to and just,

rubbing your hand on that place. So for me it's either always my chest or my belly and for people it could be somewhere entirely different and coming back to that right actually in this moment what am I feeling? I can feel the fabric of my jumper underneath my hand, I can feel the warmth of my hand meeting my chest, my chest is responding with the warmth coming back to that sensory process and then okay so how is my breath now? And just by paying attention to the breath

The breath changes. We're bringing in change just by giving that question like, how is my breath? Okay, there's an deepening level of awareness. It's really shallow. That's okay, it's really shallow. I'm not going to force a change. I'm just going to sit alongside the shallowness and go, I see, thank you. And what happens if I imagine that I've got a tree up against my back? Or what happens if I actually intentionally take a step back?

And it can be a physical step back, a step back into my chair, a resting back or leaning back a little bit, which brings in a little bit of space in front of me. Automatically, I might start to come forward again. It's just like, I'm there again. Isn't that interesting? I've just gone there without realizing it. And what happens again if I place my hand on my chest and go, I'm inviting myself just to take a step back.

and it becomes a process of like then learning actually because that's one of our body senses of when we're in our nervous system you know when you're in that aspect of the nervous system when in the I've forgotten what it's called good old menopause I teach and I forgot what it's called they go when I'm all up and out and fight and flight and it's like automatically I'm moving forward my eyes become slightly starey and it's like those body cues of and it's okay there

ChaNan (42:07.308)
I'm listening to my body. So it's bringing in the practice to start with it. If we start with something very simple that starts to build a bridge between nervous system, body, emotions, energy field. It's like actually, because you're reweaving all these things together.

Sally (42:30.242)
Yeah.

ChaNan (42:30.592)
and how can we just do that? And it's practice, it's practice. As you said earlier, it's that muscle memory of if I do it enough, I can spot quicker when I'm out of it.

Sally (42:44.588)
Yeah, that's really beautiful. The noticing, it's in the noticing, isn't it? The noticing of where we're out of kilter. The noticing of are we lurching forward? The noticing, are we too far back?

ChaNan (43:01.206)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. definitely.

Sally (43:01.838)
you know, because there is that as well. So and why are we too far back? You know, have we burnt ourselves out? And what can we do to maybe edge ourselves forward, activate ourselves a little bit? We need a cooler shower or do a few jumping jacks or go for a brisk walk in the cold or something. So I feel that, you know, that is what my life is from moment to moment is I'm always.

asking that question, what does my body want? What does my mind need? What does my body need? And I love how you described it as a reweaving. I've come across this word quite a few times, this weaving into existence from Eileen McCusick's work about the ether and how really we're weaving it into reality through our intentions, thoughts, behaviors, patterns, all of that.

and what did you say you said nervous system body emotions and energy

ChaNan (44:01.208)
emotions. Yeah, and I'm sure there are others as well. You know, we can throw in all the different realms of the bodies. But if you just come to those four, those four aspects, you know, physical, physical and structural, you know, yeah, emotional, energetic. And what's going on around us?

Sally (44:19.726)
Yeah, brilliant. I'm really enjoying this conversation so far. It's really good. It's really good. So I wanted to ask you a little bit about masking because I think masking is so interesting, especially when we have sensitivities that don't tend to fit the social norms. In your experience, what kind of masking have you seen?

ChaNan (44:28.054)
Great. It's great, isn't it? you.

Sally (44:49.228)
Why do we do it? How can we stop it? Is masking ever appropriate?

ChaNan (44:57.02)
Masking is definitely appropriate. Sorry I interrupted you just then. It can definitely be appropriate if we are not feeling safe enough to be our true selves. So if there is, and let's face it, that there's so much trauma that it carried in all bodies of, you know, and some bodies more than others, that actually that history tells us that often it's not safe to be who we are.

Sally (44:59.596)
Yeah, go for it, go for it.

ChaNan (45:26.582)
that masking is appropriate. So I think what I would say is the level of masking and how we can be appropriate with the level of masking in the environments we're in. Yeah, because it's that safety. And again, if I come to the five elements and it's like that boundary of

actually how am I presenting myself to the world and what is appropriate to ensure that I don't feel overly vulnerable or overly protected. So it's that filter in and out and it can manifest in so many different ways and you know it can I mean for me if I if I speak to me about my personal experience I think that's probably the easiest it's like you know

Sally (46:05.475)
Yeah.

ChaNan (46:23.51)
going back probably overly needy, friendly, overly reachy outy because I've been looking for that connection as a source of safety. And then conversely, when I'm not met in that, because obviously some people go, well actually that doesn't feel safe to me, appropriately so, I then completely rejected, so completely aloof and cut off.

So it's sort of like there's, so I'm not met in either one of those. And both of those can be a mask. And of course, I mean, we've got, I'm just parking all the social media masking, which is just like, I can be anyone who I want to be, which instantly for me is, you know, I see that as a direct correlation between that and a lot of mental health problems in youngsters because they have no ground or sense of ego of who I am.

because they've grown up with this, actually I can be whoever I want to be and put it out there. It's like there isn't enough sense of self to find that and experience it. But I've gone off at a complete tangent. Does that answer your question enough?

Sally (47:25.399)
I see.

Sally (47:33.07)
That's very interesting.

Yeah, it really does. And what came up for me actually was this idea of conscious masking. So a lot of the time you see in the, especially in some of the neurodiverse conversations is, I don't need to mask anymore. I don't want to mask anymore. This is who I am. know, and I, it's so much better for me now to show up as my authentic self. But what I got from you was, mm.

ChaNan (47:41.42)
Mm-hmm.

Sally (48:03.15)
Yeah, I get that, but sometimes it's okay to mask if you don't feel safe, if you're in an environment where, you know, being your authentic self might put you in danger. So then we have a choice, don't we? So was, you know, bringing us back to that empowerment piece of, it's okay to mask, like go ahead and mask if you are choosing to. It's like...

ChaNan (48:23.884)
Yeah, if it's not from a trauma response or a stress response. And because it's like that, I think that's where the disconnect can happen is if we don't know we're doing it or if it's a default position for us to, know, I've got no choice but to go there. And you really need, you know, it's really hard to...

to work through those, I guess that leaves me almost like into shadow work. It's really hard to work through the aspects of yourself that producing the mask, the need to create the mask without someone who's really walking alongside you as witness and who you feel safe enough to challenge you in those places. Because there can be a little bit of a challenge.

Sally (49:18.594)
Yeah.

ChaNan (49:21.77)
and well, you know, a right challenge in terms of why, you know, not a why, but, you know, that can prod you into that edge of growth.

Sally (49:32.822)
Yeah, and sometimes we hold onto the masks because we don't know any different, we don't want to let go of them, that sense of familiarity, who will I be without the mask, will I be rejected, will I be able to maintain connections with people? There's so much that comes up and it's a very vulnerable place to be isn't it when we start working through the layers of the behaviours that are not

really us but their trauma responses essentially and as you say I'm an advocate, a big big advocate for doing this with someone and I remember very much like in my early days of having therapy it's almost like I wouldn't let my therapist help me and she was like is it hard for you to be supported?

ChaNan (50:03.702)
Yeah, yeah.

ChaNan (50:19.48)
You

Sally (50:25.55)
because I had this wound if I've got to do it all myself and for many, many, years, you know, that's kind of what I carried with me until I started having therapy and recognized the value in letting yourself be supported. But also there was a big trust element as well. Like, couldn't really trust people. And I think it is about having the right therapist who you do trust and you get that, that kind of, you get that,

that link, like you feel that link with someone is so important because yeah, can be such a vulnerable thing to do. Yeah.

ChaNan (51:07.32)
really vulnerable. And, and as an addition to that, to know that it takes time, it's not fast food, it takes so much time. And still, you know, I've, I've been in my own self development for years. And there is still, I will still get caught up and the pattern will still come up.

And I really want to say that it's okay that the patterns still come up. The patterns will always be there because they are form, they're part of my weave. They're part of my warp and my weft of my weave. And it's just spotting when the pattern is there and going, it's there. Hello, you. What are you telling me? Why am I responding like this? Always being curious. So rather than, you know, I've worked on this so many times, it's coming up back to this old chestnut and really cross with my...

just like I take a very different approach it's just like sitting alongside it putting an arm around it going you're here again I'm really curious why are you here what do you want to tell me

Sally (52:13.324)
Hmm, it's really beautiful.

ChaNan (52:15.136)
and really giving yourself the compression to do that.

Sally (52:18.604)
Yeah and I think that's one thing that really embracing my sensitivities has taught me especially over the last year or half a year actually is to approach myself with a lot more gentleness you know rather than beating myself up or you know trying to approach my self growth with that type a personality that was

actually the wound. And so there's been a huge learning curve recently around letting go, letting go, letting go, letting go, and being more gentle, more compassionate, more kind. And again, I really do think that is the gift of menopause. That is the gift of the tumultuous time that we go through that leads us to this self-knowledge. And I don't know about you, but...

There's no greater thrill on earth than recognizing or spotting a pattern. Do you know what I mean?

ChaNan (53:16.408)
you

ChaNan (53:21.624)
Yeah yeah totally it's just like AHAHA!

Sally (53:28.012)
Yeah, it's like BINGO! Yeah, me too, me too. Listen, I've really, really enjoyed speaking to you today, Chanan, and I hope that the listeners have...

ChaNan (53:28.256)
Hmm. Yeah, yeah. I get very excited very easily about stuff like that.

ChaNan (53:38.84)
Bye!

Me too, thank you.

Sally (53:46.146)
really got something out of it. I'd love to know if you're listening to this, I'd love to know what you thought. Reach out to Chanon and let her know what you thought as well about some of the things that she has said that we've said together that have come out of this podcast and this conversation, which I always love. I love having these conversations with people like yourself. I gain so much from them. So beautiful to hear your wisdom, your take on things. was plant seeds in my mind.

How do you work with people? Love to give you and your business, your practice, your clinic, a little bit of air time. How do you work with people? What sorts of people come to you? Yeah, what have you got going on? How can people connect with you? Are you even on social media? You don't strike me as someone that would be on social media.

ChaNan (54:31.64)
Mm.

ChaNan (54:37.258)
I am on social media. can fall into doom scrolling just like anyone else. I'm on social media as Chanan Bonsa. And I have a love hate relationship with social media. So sometimes I'll go, it's a beautiful flat. That's a tree. I'll post that. And then I won't post for ages. But anyway, so I'm a, yeah, I'm on social media as Chanan Bonsa. Thank you for asking. Clinic wise, I work one to one with people and

in an organisational status, but at the moment I'm not taking on new clients. I'm full for this year because I'm really giving myself space to indulge in some creative projects. the exception to that is in September. I'll be running another intake of my course, is called Dreaming Your DNA, Opening Your Potential, which is working with a set of vessels as part of our energy body that's really hardwired in from our prenatal.

aspect, our epigenetic ancestry that we're carrying out into how we manifest our life and what and working a lot through embodied imagination practices. It's very wonderful. I've had some very good feedback with that. So, that comes with a session for eight sessions. So that's one way working with me, if that. And the other thing I do is I've got a course called Reclaiming Sensitivity.

or reclaiming your sensitivity, which that's on, you can access that through my website, chanannbonser.com, there's a bit of a glitch going on with that. So I'm just starting a new platform, which is elementalmedicine.life, and you can access it through that. And it's a program that's really designed to take you through lots of...

information about your energy body sensitivity, how it connects to your physical body, reweaving your sensitivity back into your system. And it's a self-led course and with lots of practices. yeah, so that's on elementalmedicine.live. Thank you.

Sally (56:51.96)
That sounds really brilliant actually and I'm going to have a little look at it myself because I think that, you know, those self-paced courses I think are really good just to be able to do at any time you want to without having to feel like you've got to show up at a certain time as well. They're different, aren't they? Because we're going to group work when we want that connection.

ChaNan (56:57.794)
Thank

ChaNan (57:10.029)
Yeah.

Sally (57:16.192)
and the self-paced stuff when we just want to do it in our own time. So you've got some really good offerings there, definitely worth having a look at.

ChaNan (57:19.264)
Yeah, thank you. Thank you. And with the reclaiming sensitivity, I'm just in the with the moving from one platform to another, which happened in November, I'm just really doing a lot of rewriting it. So if anyone accesses it soon, things will be there'll be stuff that will be rewritten, but similar, but bit more streamlined. It's one of those I need to jujude up a bit and sprinkle it with a bit more fairy dust.

Sally (57:46.062)
It's so awkward isn't it when like you have to change platforms it's such a massive deal yeah yeah completely relate yeah yeah I've been on Kajabi for quite a few years and it's such an expensive platform and I really don't need all of its functionality but I cannot bring myself to change platforms

ChaNan (57:51.7)
It's so stressful, so stressful. And then it's just like,

ChaNan (58:10.86)
Well, I've just moved to Kajabi from Teachable and Teachable was just like so unintuitive. And in terms of the user experience from people, some people could never even log in. They could never even find the login button. And I've just moved to Kajabi, so I'm trying to bring all my websites over and sort of have it as just one place. But I don't know, it's all a bit of a nightmare.

Sally (58:14.103)
Okay.

Sally (58:25.591)
Okay, yeah.

Sally (58:33.41)
Yeah. Yeah.

It's a lot isn't it? Well if you need any help with Kajabi let me know but their chat system's great. Anyway we're completely digressing here aren't we? I'm sure the menopausal audience, unless they are business owners themselves, are really not interested in this bit so I apologize. But Chanon thank you so much. I have loved speaking to you today, listening to you. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much.

ChaNan (58:43.89)
We have, haven't we?

ChaNan (59:02.412)
That's a thank you so much for inviting me Sally. I've had a really lovely conversation. I really appreciate the depth and the questions and where we've gone to. So thank you. I'm having a nice hot flush now.

Sally (59:10.968)
Thank you.

What a way to finish.

ChaNan (59:15.882)
Absolutely. All right then.