177 The Changing Landscape of Sex and Sexuality at Menopause with Cate Mackenzie

Join me and Cate Mackenzie in our conversation about navigating the changing landscape of sex and sexuality at menopause. Cate is absolutely brilliant with making this subject natural and accessible. So if you’re worried about the ICK factor, don’t be, Cate is an expert.

Cate Mackenzie is an accredited sex and relationship therapist, who shares her journey into the world of sex therapy and the importance of self-love and empowerment in relationships, and in this conversation, we talk about:

🌱 Understanding Libido and Sexuality in Menopause
🌱 Exploring the Psychosomatic Elements of Sexual Health
🌱 Creating a Playful and Relaxed Sexual Environment
🌱 Navigating Conversations About Sex
🌱 Empowerment in Relationships and Sexuality
🌱 The Dynamics of Sexual Desire
🌱 Health Benefits of Fulfilling Sex
🌱 Understanding Different Types of Sex
🌱 Creativity in Sexual Relationships
🌱 Navigating Dating in Midlife
🌱 Building Relationships Through Friendship

So if you’re ready to be educated and inspired, tune in now.

Cate’s Links:

Website: www.catemackenzie.com

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/catemmackenzie/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/catelovecoach

X: https://x.com/catemackenzie

Sally's Links:

[Free] Relaxation Hypnosis Recording:  https://bit.ly/relaxationwithsally

How to Create Phenomenal Self Esteem [£47]:  https://www.sallygarozzo.com/selfesteem

Menopause Wellbeing Practitioner [£127] https://www.sallygarozzo.com/meno

Cold Water Therapy Practitioner [£127] https://www.sallygarozzo.com/cold

Transformational 30 Day Rewire (Includes RTT) [£447]: https://www.sallygarozzo.com/rapid-transformational-therapist

Transformational Trauma Informed Coaching [From £197]:  https://www.sallygarozzo.com/transformational-coaching 

Instagram:  https://www.instagram.com/sallygarozzomindmentor

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sallygarozzo/

Send me a voice clip via What’s App - https://wa.me/message/FTARBMO7CRLEL1

Transcript

Sally (00:01.726)
So my guest today is the lovely Kate McKenzie. Kate is an accredited sex and relationship therapist, a love coach, and an artist. She offers therapy, coaching, and workshops to individuals and couples of any orientation or gender. Her passion is supporting people to fall in love with themselves, with life, and with others. She runs workshops in France, Spain, Greece, Monaco,

Q8 and the UK. She's been doing that since 1998. And she was the dating coach for channel four's, undateables, a flirting coach on channel five's, the Jeremy Vine show, and a sex therapist on channel four's Kinky Britain. She is regularly in the media, gives advice in the independent and has been featured in the Guardian, Red Esquire, The Telegraph, BBC Radio and channel five news among others.

And if that wasn't enough, her paintings have been sold in 80 countries around the world through Ikea. So Kate, hello and welcome to the podcast today. It's so lovely to see you. How you doing?

Cate Mackenzie She/her (01:15.212)
Very good, lovely to be with you, Sally. Thank you for having me. yeah, I've just been admiring your hair, which is fantastic. yeah, it's lovely to be here. Thank you very much.

Sally (01:26.128)
brilliant, so I'm really really excited to speak with you Kate because you bring such a beautiful energy to this topic which can be a little bit you know difficult to talk about actually but you make it safe, you make it interesting, you make it really accessible, you're so welcome. So let's start with how did you get, how did the world of sex and relationship therapy find you?

Cate Mackenzie She/her (01:38.39)
So kind.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (01:50.894)
Well, thank you. Thank you, Sally, for that. Thank you for saying that's really, I would love to be like that soft and making things accessible. That would really mean, that would mean a lot to me if that's true. So thank you very much. I am an accidental sex therapist, completely accidental. What happened to me was I went to Manchester to study social sciences, sociology and economics and psychology. And I felt I wanted to be

Sally (01:58.301)
Hmm.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (02:18.636)
doing things more actively. where I was studying, there was a training to become what's called a community artist. And it meant training in all the arts, art, dance, drama, writing, music, and understanding also how you might work with different groups. And that essentially as human beings, the idea of having a culture is the idea of being human. So if people are not given access to empower themselves through the arts and see themselves,

through the arts, what they produce, but also see themselves in tele, film, opera, if they don't have that, they don't have the same experience of feeling their humanity as other people who might have that experience. So I worked from 93 for 18 years consistently and then still do sometimes in community arts teaching mainly dance and drama to people with disabilities, mental health issues, ex-offenders, older people maybe creating books out of their story, then maybe a play.

out of the book, maybe graffiti projects with women, maybe a lot of dance, a lot of drama, all over Manchester, all over Yorkshire, with different places like Mind the Gap or One in Four. And then I went to London and I worked for lots of places all over London running groups, people in homeless projects, people in East London, people long-term unemployed, mental health, disabilities, or people who were training as well and getting their qualifications.

worked with them as well alongside. And what happened is I did other trainings, dance or coaching or Reiki or you name it. And I ended up giving talks, workshops and working around the world and working in lots of places like Alternatives or MindBodySpirit festivals. And I then was working with the idea of opening your heart or letting love in, which was basically like you could say inner child workshops.

in the sense of you come on a week, paint, dance, write and explore that in a world. And then what happened was I ran a group where it was really evident how wounded people were over divorce, over loss, over love, over grief, and that for many people, love is a dangerous word and they couldn't believe in it. It was really, really...

Cate Mackenzie She/her (04:45.1)
difficult and people said can you give us the intellectual reason for love and I didn't have one and I you know some people had a good time on that course in fact one couple met and then had a baby subsequently which is amazing but some people I'm not sure they intended to come on my course they maybe just ended up on my course often people choose a course but sometimes people just end up on a course but there were a lot of people with a lot of wounding deep wounding in the heart and

I suddenly thought I've got to go and train. wasn't, I didn't want to, I thought I've got to go and train to be a therapist. I was a bit like, this is going to be so serious, terribly serious. And I thought, my God, I don't know if I can do this. So I did, I went off to train to be a sex and relationship therapist. And then you start that road and it continues and you end up with tons and tons and tons of trainings. It's just the way it goes. And I'm very, very grateful. And I've learned so much about.

Sally (05:19.773)
Mm-hmm.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (05:42.508)
You know, you can talk about love in terms of hormones or trauma, or you can talk about human relations or attachment theory or lust or fantasy or attachment love. You can talk about sex in terms of sealed off sex. What do I look like? Or solace sex? I need you feed me or synchrony sex. Can we dance together? And like you're doing with menopause, you can talk about all these things in a multi-dimensional way for different people in different ways. And so

I now think I'm very happy and excited. I've gone on this journey and it's very creative. So it's kind of come full circle. But initially I was a bit scared to become a therapist. I thought it was this terribly serious profession. Of course it needs to be in depth and you do need to do the studying, but it's a lot. It's a lot at the time. But I'm so grateful. So I ended up, and now if I look back, and they always say that, Steve Jobs said that, didn't he? You can't see the plan until you look back.

Sally (06:35.048)
Yeah.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (06:41.486)
backwards. You know, we wouldn't have fonts without him studying calligraphy as a teenager on the laptop. I can see now, my mother wrote Erotica, my granny made soft porn movies in the 70s and my aunt ran a models agency. So there was in a way a lot in my background which speaks to kind of women and sexuality. And I can kind of see it's a natural path I've gone down, the healing sexuality and making it fun and playful, hopefully.

path. Yeah.

Sally (07:13.236)
Yeah, I love that. That sounds, you know, absolutely amazing how you sort of came to that and as you say you look back and you're like yeah that makes perfect sense now I totally get my path in life and I'm actually meant to be here and sometimes when we're in the thick of it and we don't know which direction we're going in it doesn't really matter it's like make a decision, trust your intuition, go with it and as you look back you will see how it all

Cate Mackenzie She/her (07:28.162)
Yeah

Cate Mackenzie She/her (07:41.016)
That's it.

Sally (07:42.59)
kind of made sense, yeah.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (07:44.759)
That's it. It seems so large to become a therapist. And it is, and it was. And now I get it. Like that's the, like Plato's cave. You know, you're in like this cave and you think there's no light outside, but there is.

Sally (07:57.522)
Yeah, yeah. So, one of the big menopausal symptoms, so we're talking to a lot of menopausal people in this podcast, and that's why I've brought you here, because one of the big issues that we have in menopause for many women is this loss of libido. And it can cause so much pain in our marriages, in our partnerships and within ourselves.

And a lot of the time, know, on a lot of the forums, so many people are asking, how can I get it back again? How can I get my spark back again? And I'm sure this is a very, very, very deep subject and you can go on so many different tangents with this. But where would you start with someone answering that question? How can you get your spark back?

Cate Mackenzie She/her (08:47.458)
So obviously, like you said, this is long or as short as a piece of string and everybody's different. may be physical symptoms that need to be checked out. There may be hormonal issues that maybe need to be looked at. There may be lifestyle issues. know, how worn out are you? What's going on in your life? I think sometimes the interesting thing about the hormonal changes is that sometimes women learn how to say no and they learn how to kind of...

Sally (08:52.081)
Yeah

Sally (08:56.466)
Mm-hmm.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (09:15.65)
boundary themselves or have a different life. So although that may come out of all these changes, which may not be easy, it may be there's whole lifestyle changes that come. I've met lots of women in their fifties, they can't carry on doing the same things they've been doing, but that may mean that they start to have boundaries or they start to say no, possibly, or they go and get their vulva or their clitoris checked out because they didn't notice.

that there was atrophying and that maybe they need some attention there or maybe they've been having sex that they don't want and they were never talking about because some people in a long-term relationship feel it might be rude to say, I don't want that kind of dopamine sex. I want some more oxytocin, some lovemaking sex depending on what's happening or you might be having fun, but I'm not, I've just been pretending.

But that can be quite brave to say that, so what people might do is start to avoid. And so when the partner might go to touch them or whatever, they get irritated. Whereas there's one thing with, sorry about the sound, one thing with libido and there's nothing with sexuality. So libido might change with the hormonal changes, not for everybody. Some people, it doesn't go down that libido. Everybody, it's different for everybody.

And it's worthwhile checking out why and what. Were you having the sex you wanted? If you were, then there may be some tweaks. Your doctor may be able to help, kind of, colleges might be able to help. But one thing is libido. There are changes for many people in menopause. But another one is sexuality. Sexuality is how we're relating to life. So how much desire have you got for life? How much pleasure is in your life? And don't worry if you haven't got any.

Sally (11:05.948)
Cate Mackenzie She/her (11:12.524)
This is not about a shoulding thing. This is about an invitation. So one thing is we have something called spontaneous or responsive desire. So often when pre-perimenopause, there may be, and it's not for everybody, there may have been spontaneous desire because you might have had the hormones that just want to have sex. That might be possible that your hormones would lead you to sex.

So you want that spontaneous desire. That still carries on for some people. They have spontaneous desire. But for those that it's responsive desire, they may need to find out what turns them on. What's going to make them feel hot? Right. What what do they need to feel like, you know, a little bit in a positive narcissism, as in like good about them? Right. Because like sometimes it's been years since people bought themselves some nice underwear or a nice outfit and feel good or go for the sauna for the swim.

Take themselves, I always say, if you're not quite sure about this, get yourself a really nice notebook and like a pledge, your pleasure diary, go to a cafe with a pen, no shudding, and start to think what gives me pleasure? What do I like? What do I desire? Or what would I like to? Start to make lists, to not depressurize yourself, but to start to explore. And I find if you make those lists, they start to happen. So you might notice I like,

blue glass or I want a velvet dress or I want to go cold water swimming or if you don't really know ask other people so it's you starting to develop a palette of sexuality, sexuality being a continuum of communication with you and with others because if you're starting to feel good and hot and you feel hot about you you may then be able to kind of

create little snacks of hotness with someone else, which might be a hand massage, it might be a meal out, it might be practicing flirting in the way that's right for you. I sometimes say this and some women go, it can trigger the, they have to be a something because they're a woman, have to be, and I'm thinking, my world would be no, what's your version of you being hot for you? What's your version of desire? Pleasure.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (13:32.992)
And also go and find out what you need and want. Right? You know, a lot of things can happen with, you know, atrophying, the urethra and even, and even the vulva and the clitoris, various things can happen that you can get help with and find out what to do oils and creams and, and, different things. And your progesterone or your estrogen or you can find out, even testosterone.

You can go and get some extra help with those side of things. But equally, this could be a chance to find out who are you? What do you want? If you've been someone who's been a mother or a carer or focused on others or a daughter-in-law or all this focus on others, could there be even a five minute piece regularly to find out what would you desire? What would you want? And I think the other thing is I've talked to older women who get relieved.

Sally (14:09.716)
Mmm.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (14:29.058)
that they're not having intercourse anymore and because they found it painful. But maybe they're doing puddles or more massages with their partner or more kisses. Maybe they wanted more of that early on and maybe they were having the dopamine sort of sex, the kind of really exciting sex, but maybe they didn't want that. Maybe the partner wanted that. people don't always find it easy to discuss these different pieces of the puzzle. So sorry, there's so many pieces aren't there, but yeah, there's a lot, isn't there?

Sally (14:33.374)
Yeah.

Sally (14:53.319)
Mmm.

Mmm love it. Do you think there's a psychosomatic element to vaginal atrophy like to that to to to the kind of clenching the tightening and the painful sex is there a you know a an emotional side of that too would you say in your experience? Yeah.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (15:13.176)
Definitely, definitely, definitely. Obviously everyone's different and everyone may have different experiences. And I'm being general here, but you know, when I've worked with couples and they are struggling because let's say it's a heterosexual couple and he wants intercourse and she's having paid on intercourse. Once I can, if they're on for it, get them to explore different sorts of ways of playing and touch and maybe creating a little play kit, which might have.

You can have household objects like a feather duster or a wooden spoon, or you can try kinky things to try different textures, be rope, to play with each other and try things. And they make these sessions, which is play rather than it has to be touch you here, touch you there, right, let me get my penis in. Sometimes quite regularly, and these can be older women, they're up for intercourse, but their body's relaxed because play has entered and it's not demand.

Demand is quite crushing. always think like female genitals are like little sea creatures. They're really delicate and it's different for different women. Some women want to be touched quite strongly, but a lot of women want to be teased. So if it gets into a rhythm where you feel he's going tap, tap, ready, tap, and you think, you know, and you can imagine the genitals going, I don't know, I don't know. Whereas,

if you got more confident and there was more space for you and you were having a bit more pleasurable time for you maybe in your own way and feeling good and you could just go, you could enjoy his responses to you, but also can there be different ways of connecting? And that's also about helping the woman step into her seductress, step into her more empowered so she doesn't have to reject, it doesn't have to be like, God, I'm under pressure, but more like, thank you, darling.

We can have a little kiss. Like it doesn't have to go straight to intercourse unless you want that. It could later. Is there, is there ways of making snacks, snacks of sensuality and sexuality, you know, and, and, and being what I call right size pieces and what I call becoming actively receptive. So I teach courses in flirting and communicating. And, and I have met lots of people who said, but I, know, when I meet the right person, I will naturally flirt or.

Sally (17:20.33)
mmm bite-sized pieces of sex

Cate Mackenzie She/her (17:36.91)
I just want to be myself. Absolutely. But I feel like it's like learning to drive. You know, it's a rare person and there are people who got straight into a car and knew how to drive. It's more about can I get confident so that when that stressful moment comes, I can go, you cute thing. That's lovely. Just have a little hug. So not knocking your partner, but guiding. And I think sometimes it's been hard for people after a while they've put up with maybe, maybe they've put up with things they didn't want and then.

lose the confidence to guide but it's easier if you're building yourself up. Then the other thing is to compliment. Compliment because that energy coming from your partner, if your partner still wants you, that is a good thing and you might just want to guide it a certain way and that's also learning flirting skills because we all like to be flirted with differently so sometimes it can go bit wrong because one partner might be really straight up, would you like it? The other one wants teasing or wants

a date with an atmosphere or once the massage table out at six and have a massage and then they'll be open. So sometimes if your partner is really direct, you might want to teach them, look, I'm really energetic. I'm really sensitive. If you do help me with this, if you kind of woo me a bit and we have a bit of foreplay in these kind of ways, or you tease me or we have a date or we go to a sauna, I'll be ravenous for you. But

this knock knock, am I there? It's like a no. Do you know, so it's navigating desire and pleasure space. Yeah. And also a lot of women as they get older, get, they get thrush and they get cystitis, which, so you can imagine how, you know, if sex starts to get painful and then you might like sex, but if you're starting to get certain symptoms and then there's knock knock, can we have sex? And you're thinking, the body could clam in, do you see?

Sally (19:10.664)
Yeah.

Sally (19:15.047)
Mmm, okay.

Sally (19:34.3)
Yeah, so much of it is about the surround, what surrounds sex, you know, the time before sex, the time after sex. Wasn't it you, I think, when you did a talk at Inspiring Talks? I think you said something about that, didn't you? You said something about sex begins the moment it finishes or something. I think that was you.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (19:43.553)
Yes. Yes.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (19:57.602)
Well, I don't know if that was me, that may have been Esther Perel, but that's exactly right. Good lovers make love all the time. They smack each other's bottoms, if that's consensual. They send sexts, they woo each other. The partner likes a certain interesting chocolate, they find it online, they get it sent in the post with a sexy note. Not for any reason other than celebrating that partner. Well, you can imagine how your body opens as...

your partner is thinking of you in that way and focusing on you. And it's like, you know, watering your plant, you know, it will grow if so it's really different than you've done nothing all week and then you wait to get to bed 11 at night and then hope someone's going to respond to you. What they've traditionally they've said that men, men are like microwaves and women are like slow cookers. So if you can keep that slow cooker going and warming through the week.

you've got a more active, receptive person. equally, if she can really prioritize herself, take time off to make herself feel important and good and sexy, then she can enjoy it when he goes, you look amazing, rather than, no, not another job on my plate.

Sally (20:56.937)
Yeah.

Sally (21:15.25)
Yeah, because that's, think, what many women think of when they think, God, I've got to go to Victoria's Secrets and buy a bloody new lingerie set. It's a waste of money, or I can't be bothered, or I don't look very good in it, or I don't feel comfortable in it. How can we get around that? How can we reframe that?

Cate Mackenzie She/her (21:35.704)
So part of it is your pleasure diary. So example being, you know, someone I know in my world, you know, if she does certain things, dresses certain ways and has sex with her partner, happy, it's heterosexual relationship, they're very happy, he's ecstatic and also appreciates what he does, does a lot for her.

But when she was a bit worn out, not doing quite enough fun time for her, she was, cause he was quite happy to not be so sociable, but she needs to be sociable as part of her filling the pots. When she wasn't doing enough, when she was just spending a lot of time with him and he was happy with that, but she needed more to go out and about. She was finding it too much, the dressing up, the sex, the, if she was feeling at demand. And I just recommended to her, said, look, go and fill your pots.

She goes out three nights a week with friends or to the theatre or to various things that fill her juicy pot. And now she feels lucky that she's got a guy that wants that because it's like she's got bandwidth. Does that make sense? I'm not saying, by the way, I'm not saying anyone should wear Victoria's Secret if they don't want to. Maybe there's something different, but it's like, if I've got bandwidth, I've got generosity and I can feel like somebody would want me.

If I've got no bandwidth and I'm not feeling good, I'm going to put that outfit on and think, doesn't look good. Whereas if I've got bandwidth, I go, hey, if he thinks I'm hot, I'm hot, you know? So it's a lot to do with our bandwidth and our desire and our sexuality as a pleasurable piece in our life, if that makes sense.

Sally (23:15.677)
Yeah.

Sally (23:23.572)
Yes, yeah that bandwidth is so important because when we're compressed, when we've got compassion fatigue or when we've been give give give giving to the kids or parents or whatever and we feel squashed, gosh it's like, are you kidding me? So I guess really you know good sex, having pleasure is...

Cate Mackenzie She/her (23:32.942)
Yeah.

Sally (23:45.99)
or opening yourself up to it is really about looking at how you're nurturing yourself first, how you're giving to yourself first so that your cup is full because you can't pour from an empty cup and I guess that's true of sex and sexuality as well.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (24:00.15)
It's a really big deal. you're, if, mean, a friend of mine, her friend is doing a study on women who are more relaxed, PhD on women who are more relaxed about sex. And she discovered that a lot of women more relaxed about sex were slightly bigger or bigger, but it's not necessarily about the bigness or the smallness or the slimness. It's not about that. It's about women who've said, I'm good as I am. And

Sally (24:11.38)
Okay.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (24:29.1)
happy to be them and celebrate them and relax into that. That's super sexy. Then if your partner likes you to wear certain things and you're happy to be generous but you think I'm super sexy anyway and I'll put these things on. There's a kind of win-win but not a kind of you know from that pressurized my pot's empty I've got to put that outfit on I've got to try and have sex I'm not feeling comfortable it's feeling a bit sore.

Sally (24:29.236)
Okay.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (24:57.27)
You know, not that people don't navigate things, people are generous in different ways, but how different is it if your pleasure is really a priority and you being adored and looked at is a priority and he looks at you like, wow, you're the best thing or she looks at you, whoever you're or they look at you, whoever you're with. What if you are a priority and you put that in? Because we don't get what we want, we get who we are. So we get treated how we feel.

Sally (25:07.732)
Mmm.

Sally (25:25.675)
wow.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (25:27.222)
Yeah. And so, you we don't get what we want, we get who we are.

Sally (25:29.288)
We don't get what, can you say that again? We don't get what we want, we get who we are. I love it, okay.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (25:38.146)
So if we're like a fountain of love and we're exuberant and we're happy, then even a hug, you want a hug, there's no shoulds here. I think the problem sometimes that comes in couples is one person wants more than the other and there can be a cycle and a dynamic and there may be so much to unpack in that. But if even one person starts to make their life more joyous, maybe they've got room to go, hey, thank, let's have a hug.

let's have a kiss and not have to say my god I have to do that then I'm have intercourse or they might want intercourse so there's also something called maintenance sex and there's something called caretza there's no shoulds on any of this but caretza is the idea if you're in a heterosexual relationship although I suppose you could try these things with other implements or dildos in other in gay relationships or different relationships is the idea that you

Sally (26:09.524)
Hmm.

Sally (26:19.966)
Mm-hmm.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (26:37.546)
you every day if you live with someone you put you put the penis inside and you don't go to orgasm you don't thrust you just build closeness every day so you just build connection every day for quite a lot of days and that can be quite profound so there can be like you know just having the odd just being close together doesn't have to be orgasmic doesn't have to but kind of building some maintenance and then having adventurous creative other experiences.

Because the truth is people say, what's chemistry? Chemistry is often the creativity of the two of you, how you're, you know, curating your space together. It's a space to go in with someone. Now, if one of you is feeling really turned off and hating it, that's not going to be great for the other one, even if you think you're doing them a favour. Because really, so many people say that they're pleasurous because the other person's happy and present.

So that's why taking shits off, having more pleasure and finding creative ways to connect in little snacks, little snacks of passion and then maintenance. And then you can go for the adventurous stuff too. You you can create a date for that, but not putting it under so much pressure. And then it becomes like, let's, I've just got to avoid the whole thing, you know?

Sally (28:01.574)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like little micro steps, little steps along the journey, know, starter first, then going for the main course, then going for the desserts rather than just launching into the dessert. Yeah, go on.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (28:05.314)
Yeah. Yeah.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (28:11.404)
Men News.

menu and it could be quite fun. Could be quite fun to even sit down and say, you know, what would you like from me if you're up for that? Now, all this depends. You have to recognise what state or stage you're in. If you've just had a baby, you want to rest. If you've been ill, you might need some healing time. If you're feeling perimenopausal or menopausal and you're feeling really discombobulated, you may not be in that space, but you might be in a transformational space where you've added more pleasure and then you

have capacity to say, give me your list. And then you could think about creating an aperitif, a main and a suite, or you could think about both of you planning, how do you do some interesting things or going on a course together, which creates that atmosphere or learning massage together. If you can have those kinds of conversations, and again, that's why Pleasure First for you regulates you.

because if you're not doing pleasure first view and you're feeling like it's a demand, it could trigger you and that's not going to be so helpful. But if you're feeling pleasured up and your partner goes, yeah, I'd like some blow jobs, well, they could say that. You're not saying, I'm going to do that, but it can be quite fun to discuss. Or even what's your fantasies? Fantasies can be play medicine when you play with them.

Sally (29:36.882)
Yes, I love all of this. What I'm actually feeling woohoo right now as we're talking about this. For me, what's kind of coming through is this idea as a woman in my relationship, is this idea of like allowing sexual energy to flow through me and responding to that. So first of all,

Cate Mackenzie She/her (29:43.383)
Yeah.

Sally (30:06.216)
being open to receiving that sexual energy, just being open like, okay, maybe I don't feel turned on right now, but I'm just gonna sit there and be open to the possibility of feeling turned on, feeling aroused. And then putting my awareness down into my genitals and just kind of feeling what's going on down there. No touch, I'm just putting my awareness down there for starters, because how often do we cut off?

Cate Mackenzie She/her (30:32.302)
Hmm

Sally (30:34.59)
from that, right? And then perhaps calling in some of that sacral energy, some of that sexual energy and just, you know, maybe like moving your hips in a certain way and putting some nice music on and then dancing. It's like, ooh, this feels really nice. So you're kind of getting, you're doing it yourself and you are tuning into that sexual energy that exists in the universe as like a, I think of these energies as rays.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (30:34.744)
Yes.

Sally (31:03.79)
rays of light if you want to call it that but but that's how I sort of see see all of these flavors of emotion really or all of these sensations in the body and then being in the moment and allowing that to flow through you but I'm guessing if you're very stressed and you've got lots and lots and lots of layers above that then it's going to be hard to to tap into so I'm guessing that you know at first port of call let's

try and slough off some of the stress and go to the self care and then see if we can be in the moment and allow that sexual energy to come across.

Sally (32:35.189)
so sorry.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (32:37.326)
It's alright, that's okay.

Sally (32:40.681)
There's something going wrong with my internet. It kept cutting out.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (32:44.99)
Of yeah. Don't worry, these things happen, don't they? So don't worry at all, yeah.

Sally (32:48.442)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they do. I've got it on my, it's tethering from my phone, but my internet has just cut out, so I don't know what's going on there. Anyway, where was I? I was downloading sexual energy.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (32:57.106)
Yeah. You were dancing and moving the same coat, Jackra, yeah. You've totally got it. This is the thing, and it's the same with dating or getting back into dating or any kind of getting back into you and your life and your body. Exactly. If people are open to dance, dancing every day, looking in the mirror, saying, love you, which...

Sally (33:06.889)
Yeah.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (33:22.932)
It is challenging, but it really works. mean, that's why they tell people to do this stuff. It really works. Even if you did five minutes dancing, you open up all that energy and people can read it. We read people all the time. They can read your energy being open. And Webster's University did a study and it wasn't what you might think of typically attractive people that got asked out or got responded to. was the people sending signals.

and the signals were smiling, looking, connecting. So if you've already got yourself warmed up and you're practicing smiling, connecting, you're more available. You're the one that people are gonna wanna talk to and approach. And I've talked to people and they've gone out and sat in a cafe and I said, but how did you do it? And they said, they their arms folded and they weren't smiling. I said, that's not gonna open up, that's not gonna open up the space.

Exactly what you're saying, if we do those things, you know, dancing, smiling, moving, sexual energy is a life force energies. You know, it's what creates music. It's what creates babies, obviously. It's what creates art. It's what it is the stuff of the universe and it's moving through us all the time. Can we allow that? And of course, people may have messages or shame or physical things. They may have all kinds of things going on. But even so,

you can have it in the way that's right for you and you can find, you know, doesn't have to be intercourse or genitals if you don't want that. It can be exactly like you said. Can you let energy move through you? And the fun thing is, if you do like intercourse or genital sex or you want to be with someone and do that, if you can then practice imagining energy moving through the two of you up through your genitals, through your head, through them and down and up, that can be fun. So you can take this understanding of dancing and energy.

Or could you ever dance with them? And let energy move through both of you. Because really what we're talking about with sex is communion of love. It's getting very close to someone. So that can be with genitals or not. It could be just sitting and looking into each other's eyes. That is so deep. And listening. So deep. So there's many different options. And of course,

Sally (35:26.643)
Yeah.

Sally (35:36.508)
Mmm, so deep.

Yeah.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (35:42.466)
For many people, they haven't had an upbringing where it was okay to be really, really open. So it can be scary because they want to keep the peace or they came from a family where they shouted. So they're used to being all on the table, but not in such a way where people can hear it. So it's delicate, isn't it? And even to talk about sex can be very delicate. So be kind to yourself, be kind, you know.

Sally (36:06.186)
Yeah.

Yeah, I think kindness is the key. So what I see a lot of, especially in the forums is

How do we approach these conversations? We know there's a power struggle going on or there's an avoidance, you we're not having sex. He comes home from work, he's knackered, he doesn't really wanna talk. I'm feeling disconnected from him. I'm feeling like I really want to say something. I'm saying him, sorry, I'm being really heteronormative here.

to them and how do we approach the subject of sex when our partner seems a bit closed off to it?

Cate Mackenzie She/her (36:56.162)
Well, often that's not necessarily the right moment. So, so much of this is timing, space, the moment, curation, curation of a moment. It's much more about the curation. So, what I mean by that is often not on entrance, not on exit, not when someone's tired, not when they shut down. So, if you're already reading the room, that's not a great idea. What is a great idea is starting to go on dates and starting to have fun together.

Sally (37:18.101)
You

Cate Mackenzie She/her (37:24.748)
You know, and we live in Brighton and there's all these pubs all along the sea where, know, even now you could go and sit in the pub at the week. You know, you go places where you could sit and look at the sea. So you could sit opposite each other and have a drink and look at the sea. I have a dear friend who. When her and her husband were very squashed in their relationship, there wasn't that much space, a lot going on. She discovered that in the winter, lot of seaside towns.

do, we'll do a hotel night really cheaply, one hotel night, because in the winter they're not selling so many nights. And she just once a month booked for them to go away and they reinvigorated their sex life because sometimes, you know,

your life, busyness, work, children, the same environment, it isn't the easiest to go and ignite everything, but you go away. Just going away can suddenly, now not everyone can afford that, so it's all different for everyone, but it's like there are ways to change the energy, change the environment. Even like look up somewhere you've both never been and go for a drink and ask your partner to wear something that you would like or they, you wear something they would like.

and just maybe even have a make it playful. So the thing with people which is so understandable is when they've got a big subject like how do we talk about sex it can build up, build up, build how do we do it? then it's going to be my tip, tip would be if you could chat to some good friends to practice, create the date and then on the date go, hey, what would your fantasies be? Make it fun and light, not like a big thing like.

You're I don't like the sex we're having. Can we have a big chat about the sex and we make it better? No, I really like you. You're really great. Would you be up for like, let me know a bit more about what you'd like and I can let you know what I like and make it playful fun to playmates. And if that's not easy, but yeah, if that's not easy, ask friends, go on a little workshop, read a book, because the last thing you want to do is tell your partner that the worst in bed and you had a

Sally (39:23.336)
I love that.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (39:34.712)
partner before that was much better than them that is a disaster as a disaster you want yeah because people are sensitive and if you put them down it's really gonna be could be terrible really terrible so you want to get creative and the other thing which I talk about simmering so sometimes people come home from work and they're tired and exhausted and they want to just have an easy night and they're on the way home going has my partner done the washing up or they left them

Sally (39:40.629)
Passion killer.

Okay.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (40:04.886)
They left it mess again. So I suggest to them, because imagine meeting your partner then, you're not meeting them in a kind of constructive way. So I suggested to them that you start to imagine an erotic fantasy with your partner on the way home or any kind of fantasy where you're thinking, I'm seeing my partner, that lovely partner. So you come in the door in a different atmosphere. And maybe even if they're shut down, they might like a little stroke on the shoulders or not have to be respectful where they are.

It's really different if I come in and I'm going, what have you done? Then I come in and say, hi, hi, hot, hot bear, whatever you call your person. So, do you know, but we can get ourselves, and we call it simmering. So simmering means like a soup, you you're warming that atmosphere up. I was in a taxi the other day and the taxi driver was grumpy and I could tell he was upset, some things had happened. And I thought, I'm just gonna chat to him and see.

Sally (40:48.51)
Yeah.

Sally (40:52.51)
Yeah.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (41:04.714)
what's possible and after chatting to him a bit and then telling him I was about to go and teach a flirting workshop he cheered up and it was because I engaged with him listened to him and then we engaged and I shared where I was at so what I'm saying is if we do it gently and warmly

Cate Mackenzie She/her (41:25.186)
There might be changes, there might not. But if I just take, like they're shut down. So there's ways to create the play with your partner. There's ways. And if not, get some help. Sorry.

Sally (41:35.315)
Hmm, so I'm hearing that it's... Yeah, yeah, of course, yeah, absolutely. And I really want you to talk more about what you've got coming up and because you've got some amazing workshops and that coming up, which I highly advise people get on because you are brilliant at what you do, you really are. But what I love about what you've just said is it feels very empowering that we can be in charge. We don't have to be at the mercy of...

Cate Mackenzie She/her (41:47.15)
Thank you, though. Bless you.

Sally (42:06.214)
We don't have to be at the mercy of their mood or we don't have to be at the mercy, yeah, of the situation in front of us. We have the choice to go, okay, with our tender, compassionate heart, okay, they've probably had a really bad day. They're stuck, they're feeling tired or something's happened. We don't know, something's happened. They're shut off, they're shut down. Instead of reacting to that and sort of spitting our dummy out.

which is gonna escalate the situation. We have a choice in that moment to sort of break that cycle of tension between us. And it might feel odd at first. We might not feel like doing that because our pattern might be to be triggered by their mood or whatever. But in that moment, if we can make a different choice, then we can really improve, we can improve everything. We can improve our hormones, our nervous system.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (42:46.37)
Yeah, good.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (42:57.059)
Yes.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Sally (43:00.649)
We can improve our joy, our pleasure. We have so much power at our fingertips.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (43:05.71)
Yeah, if one person and I think you're talking about women a lot if if if if the women about everybody but if the women can kind of really up their joy. It somebody else having a difficult mood can be less impactful if I'm more full up. It's not say that anyone should stay in any relationship that's not right for them either. Because we do need for relationships to work. We do need 100 % 100 % we do need people who

Sally (43:23.583)
Yeah.

Sally (43:28.755)
Yeah.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (43:34.646)
You often have one person who's more keen on the sex, but you do need the other one to appreciate it. Or you're going to get no sex, which if it does, that may suit some relationships, that may suit some people, but if there's somebody who's unhappy about that, it's not great. That's not great for them. So it's not to say that anyone should stay in things that not great. But yes, if one person is having more joy, they can really let it roll. Difficulties, let them roll a bit more. Yeah.

Sally (43:40.149)
Yeah.

Sally (43:44.309)
Yeah.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (44:02.892)
And then the other person might cheer up because there's not the traction.

Sally (44:03.135)
Yeah.

Sally (44:09.557)
Yeah, absolutely. Okay, why is sex good for our health? Like what's going on in people that have good fulfilling sex and that might be intercourse, that might not be intercourse. What's going on for us mentally, emotionally, physically? What can you speak to about that? So I'm trying to motivate people to be inspired to change their sex lives if they're not having fun with them.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (44:34.478)
I mean, receiving touch gives us oxytocin. And there's a lovely guy called Dr. David Hamilton, a chemist, and he's done a lovely book, Why It Matters. Why giving a fuck matters because we have oxytocin receptors in our body. And when we're actually genuinely kind and giving and receiving and receive touch, it actually creates health in our body, like our heart. The aeolters and receptors in our body has to be genuine.

So that's why in a way it's complex, but it's important that people just don't submit to having to have sex because that's not going to create the health benefits. But the health benefits, if it's genuinely, I'm happy to touch you, you're happy to touch me, if there's a genuine connection, it actually opens the oxytocin receptors, which creates so much health. You know, like when, you know, there's a lot of studies, people who've got dogs have less heart attacks because of the stroking and the oxytocin.

Sally (45:33.428)
Hmm.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (45:33.654)
So that's one big health thing. There's also the attachment aspect, which is that you're seen if it feels good, if you're in a good enough connection and it feels good, you're seen, you're valued, you're held. So all that, know, people had a good enough upbringing and they had bath time, bedtime, story time, and they just felt seen and that they could go out and adventure into the world. Well, people who have

that kind of connection where they feel like they're held and seen, valued, important. You can see how that helps them in the world, right? So, but also if people are doing that, they often people notice, do you want to get your testicle checked or I've just felt something in your breast or, you know, so it's, and there's, you get regulated. Now there's different kinds of sex.

Sally (46:22.453)
Mmm.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (46:27.832)
There's oxytocin sex, that's the kind of attachment sex where you feel like you're making love and it's really tender. That's very healing, very loving. But there's also dopamine sex. It's like the kind of pleasure, adventurous, taking an edge sex, lustful fantasy sex, if you like. That's also can be quite fun. But again, it can be quite nice for people to have regular kind of the maintenance of that attachment sex where you're just close, you're just close.

Sally (46:32.18)
Yeah.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (46:57.42)
and maybe some adventurous sex sometimes. So some people are having adventurous sex all the time. Some people may like that, but they can be left hungry because you have so much dopamine that you're like, don't let the person go. And that's partly because you might need a bit more cuddles to feel satisfied. You know, like when people watch a lot of porn or eat a lot of cake or have a lot of things and they never quite, they want more and they want more. It's the dopamine. You get a low, so you want more.

Sally (47:12.467)
Right, see.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (47:25.934)
But if you get the oxytocin with the sex, that's the cuddles, the warmth, you get sated with the dopamine. So you can have the pleasure, you get the kindness gives you that, so it doesn't lead you to so much, I have to have more, I have to have more. So it's just noticing things. It's fine to have all different things, but it's just noticing also what might help you with regulating your system and helping your life. It's quite good to have a bit of adventure and risk, and it's quite nice to have those settled.

Sally (47:28.469)
Mm-hmm.

Sally (47:32.927)
Yeah.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (47:56.448)
It's very creative and what they've discovered is people who, there's a book called Magnificent Sex, Peggy Kleinplatz. The people who are the people who created great sex lives are people who are older, disabled and from the LGBTQ community plus. because they're, because the people with disabilities, they have to make a big effort to kind of really sometimes make sure they're

Sally (48:15.698)
wow. What can we learn from them?

Cate Mackenzie She/her (48:24.952)
doing that so they choose, they've come out. The people from the LGBTQ plus communities have often had to come out against all kinds of societal stuff. they've gone through a doorway and older people as well, if they choose to and they say, this is important to us, they make time for it. So people assume it's young people. It's not that young people aren't having sex, but the people who often have had to make a choice. And that's where sex is about creativity.

Sally (48:44.678)
Cate Mackenzie She/her (48:54.52)
chemistry in the sense of making your own soup. It's people who choose to curate that. Or people, they could be people who are in polyamorous or having one night stands, but they are choosing. That's an important part of my life. going to curate my life that this happens in my life.

Sally (48:57.684)
Yeah.

Sally (49:14.471)
Right, yes, so they're deciding, they're making a choice.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (49:15.83)
So it's not what you might think. We're making a choice. It's not... I think people assume it's all young people having all the hot sex. It's not. It's actually... It could be. But it's the people who decide that's important. It's those people. And that takes it away from... It has to be spontaneous. So you have to feel like it. No. Those people plan it. They plan it as part of their life. Some people don't like planning, by the way. Some people only want spontaneity. Nothing wrong with that. But if you're finding it's never happening...

Sally (49:36.501)
Mm-hmm.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (49:44.312)
then it's quite good to start to think of planning.

Sally (49:47.667)
Yeah, and I guess there are some barriers as well around, I don't want to plan, I want it to be spontaneous. And then I suppose there's some work to be done around that as well.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (49:55.34)
Yeah. Yeah. And listen, there's nothing wrong with that because some people that were planning would just like, you know, so it could be a turn off for some people. it's again, working with yourself how and sometimes you can investigate it. Emily Nagoski, who's quite a famous sex writer. What happened was she was writing her famous, very famous book that she was writing. And during that, she had some ill health, which meant

Sally (50:03.573)
be a bit of a turn off.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (50:24.684)
She didn't want have sex with her partner. She'd just got married and she was writing this big sex book, Come As You Are. And she thought, so ironic, and this is what happens with life, isn't it? You when you're doing something and you're putting it out there, you exactly go through the symptoms of exactly what you're writing about. She talks about accelerators and brakes and what you need and not need. And she just was turned off sex. And then she discovered if she could be in charge of...

Sally (50:40.297)
Yeah.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (50:52.525)
how the sex was going to be so she could be comfortable and aligned with herself and it could work for her body, they could have sex. But that was a bit of a journey. That was a bit of an investigation.

Sally (51:03.525)
Okay, okay. Yeah, she had to get to that point. Yeah, and sometimes we do have to kind of break it down a bit. But I've learned something there from you. Yeah, that would make sense, sort of thinking about my own life and my own history here a little bit. that not being able to be satiated by that kind of animalistic sex that you're having in that sense of hunger more, more, more, it's very addictive. And I guess that's why people...

Cate Mackenzie She/her (51:26.818)
very addictive.

Sally (51:28.511)
can become addicted to that type of sex or pornography that's, yeah, what they actually need is more oxytocin.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (51:31.95)
Totally. Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, yeah, the need to cuddle. The needs, you can even do it for yourself. You know, that's the havening where you stroke your own self, stroke your own arms. But if you're, nothing wrong with some adventurous hot sex, lovely. But if you're feeling like it's leaving you like, and I haven't got enough, haven't got enough, it might be you want to,

balance it with hugs or you might look at it and that's right and people might not realize but you can start to notice what are your hormonal balances and where are you at and because that can lead like if you're noticing I want loads of sweet stuff you know because it could be that you you need more you want more of the connecting nurturing you've because that felt hot but not necessarily that attachment soft safe

Sally (52:27.858)
Yeah.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (52:28.736)
one so yes just noticing what there is and how do you put how do you do that together how do you find that together and that's where we can encourage someone like I sometimes if people say my partner can't kiss they don't dare tell them I said well stroke their face stroke their mouth and you kiss their mouth and slow them down slow them down or you bring them to slow down to you give them a massage and get them to slow right down

Sally (52:50.165)
Mmm.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (52:58.002)
or if it's or give them kind of link us or give them a blowjob like slow if your partner is the dopamine sex person slow them down in a certain way don't have to get them to come but you could do something that gets them to be more slowed down so you're not going straight into the dopamine sex maybe maybe you know you can have different options yeah and create a bath yeah have a bath or a foot massage you know slow it slow it slow it down see what happens then

Sally (53:17.47)
Yeah.

Yeah, lots of different options.

Sally (53:28.723)
Yeah, take time, be curious and make it, as you say, make it important for your life. Because if you make sex unimportant, then it's never going to get a look in in your diary at all or anywhere in your life. So you have to of centralise it a little bit and yeah, make it important. Yeah.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (53:44.364)
Yeah, yeah. People who want that to be in their lives, they make sure it is in their lives. You know, not everybody does for lots of reasons, but those who do make it important. And in a way you can understand, perhaps if somebody who's grown up in a background which was shaming around sex or their family were not very emotionally open, because sex is about as adults, it's about as intimate and as vulnerable as you could get.

so exposing. So you can see why for some people they can do the 18 months of hormonal drugstore sex and then they are no more because then you have to choose it because you're not just being run by the in love hormones so you have to choose to kind of engage and that can be really vulnerable.

Sally (54:13.333)
Yeah. Yeah.

Sally (54:33.701)
And that's the spontaneous desire versus the responsive desire that you spoke about earlier.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (54:39.918)
Responsive desires, once the drugs go, yeah. Once the, so in love stage is often six months to 18 months, could be four years if you live far apart. It's dependent on, once you start to be more and more together, you start to see each other's flaws and it stops being quite the heady in love and you start to be committed. become family and it becomes more committed. So you don't get the same in love overwhelming.

phase then it becomes the responsive I'm choosing and that's when a lot of people the sex can drop because they before it was just happening because they were so in love and then can we choose once that phase has changed can we choose to make time for sex and so couples I know they've got a bath for two so they know they'll have a bath together once a week or they make Friday night

Sally (55:11.754)
Mm-hmm.

Sally (55:17.226)
Yeah.

Sally (55:24.564)
Yeah.

Sally (55:29.428)
Yeah.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (55:39.576)
teasing night where they'll watch a film and have sex, but they'll make a whole evening of it. And if they miss that out, they'll make another time. it's like, might be one leads, but the other one has to think that's a good thing. Otherwise it can't happen. No.

Sally (55:55.989)
It can't happen. Yeah, there has to be a synergy there. Yeah. So interesting. It really, really is. And I could talk to you all day. There's one more question I want to ask you, Kate. So a lot of people, because I know you, and this is a bit of a sidestep, so we're not talking about sex per se, and another area of your speciality is dating. Many people at midlife may find themselves single again.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (56:16.926)
yeah.

Sally (56:24.273)
or they might have always been single and then might feel pretty terrified about getting back out into the dating world or even a bit apathetic around it because so many people don't seem to be having that much luck on dating apps. What advice would you give to anyone in this position who's feeling a bit of a loss about dating, especially at mid-lie?

Cate Mackenzie She/her (56:47.726)
So one, be really, really kind and nice to yourself and compassionate because this stuff can wear people out and has worn people out. you know that getting a message can, you can get a dopamine hit. Do you hear from them again? You can get an adrenaline worry. You know, can get, have they ghosted me? Am I catfished? Is that a bot? You know, it can wear people out this whole online. What do I write? What do I do?

I feel get a community together, get a couple of friends or a friend, help to write your profile, make your profile zing off the page because you are brilliant, you are gorgeous, fun and hot. People say to me, is everybody? Yes, yes. I don't mean there isn't privilege around certain looks and there is and some people won't date and it's not good for them mentally or physically to date but if you are in a position you can date.

You really want to celebrate who you are. some friends for some nice words about you. Put a good dating profile out there. Ask your friends to look at it and then keep some friends engaged. Like get your friends to look at the messages because if you do, it will be clear who are the regular people, who's a good person and slow date hour and a quarter, hour and a half. Don't do millions of messages. Do nicer tease.

like thank you so much and be lovely to meet you and arrangements because people fall in love over text and then they meet and one person fall in love the other is unbalanced. So meet quite soon, do short dates, meet them once a week, multi-date, keep all dates going because people are tempted to go, I've met the one. Totally, it makes sense. By the way, none of this is wrong. everybody, we can, it all makes sense. But if you multi-date, you take the pressure off everything because if you...

immediately think someone's they're the one it is difficult. Go to workshops, there's meetings without masks. In Brighton there's something called Connection Jam. There's loads of singles nights in Brighton and there will be in London and all over, I imagine, the UK and the world. Go to things. There's something called Our Time, which is a dating app for older people. And, you know, there's

Cate Mackenzie She/her (59:08.398)
something called Raya, which is a dating app for slightly famous people. So what I'm trying to say is there's even dating apps for people with herpes. And I say that because that can be quite, I mean, it's completely common. It's completely regular. really is. So many people have it, but people can feel, do I say that? So there's dating apps for all kinds of people and situations for bigger people, smaller people, know, this everything. And

Sally (59:26.602)
Mm.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (59:38.647)
But main thing is don't crash your life. Don't cancel your life. Make dating a boundary thing. Half an hour a day on apps. Hour and a quarter to an hour and a half meeting people and explain to them. Say, look, really looking forward to meeting you. I've got to be somewhere else at this time so you're not rude. And then see how you feel on the date. And then on the date, if you like it, say I really like this, love to do it again. Make it simple. Don't feel like you've got to wait for them to say they want to see you or whatever. No, make it simple.

This is just early dating. So make the whole thing really simple and easy. And if you keep your life going, your friendships, the dance classes, whatever your things are that you do, which is why I would seriously recommend that you put the pleasure diary and the fun is an essential piece or it's overwhelming to date because what you want to do is go in stages and go deeper in the stages. And if you've got your fun going, this can really help.

Sally (01:00:10.772)
Yeah.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (01:00:34.794)
Now, monogamous people often want to go and find the One and then car crash their life and get rid of everything and just be with the One. And it's understandable.

Sally (01:00:43.731)
My God, I so recognise that.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (01:00:46.542)
I recognize that, you know, I'm sure many people recognize, you know, but ideally you wouldn't, ideally you would keep your life and your friends as important and maybe, I mean, some people are poly, some people are multi-date, ideally you would multi-date and explain you are from the beginning. I've promised myself to get to know people. I've promised myself to take time and get to know people and multi-date and get to know people because apparently it takes about seven years to actually know someone. So, you know, we...

Sally (01:01:04.563)
Yeah.

Sally (01:01:16.149)
Wow.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (01:01:16.194)
people fall in love so quick, so quick if you can slow it down I know it's not easy because it's so tempting isn't it because if you can slow it down you get to know a bit more about them and find out what's their big

Sally (01:01:29.631)
So keeping it a little bit more superficial for like a longer time. Light, okay. Lighter for longer, okay.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (01:01:33.184)
light, light for a longer time, yeah, no fun, lighter for longer because like obviously I've worked with people who've met someone, had a wonderful day and the second date was the entire weekend together and then they never heard from them again because likelihood they were what we call flooded, like how do you come back to someone you spent all weekend having sex with? There's no beginning there, you've gone to the

Sally (01:01:49.012)
Yeah.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (01:02:03.18)
And even if it's the most amazing one, that could be scary for someone that you're virtually like in a relationship now, even you just met. Nothing wrong with anyone who wants to do any of that, by the way, there's no, no, wrong. It's just if you want to get to know and develop something, take time. But if you want to play partner, if you want to play buddy, if you just want to have sex, you could do that. But also be aware of what kind of person you are, because equally you might, you might also

Sally (01:02:12.522)
Yeah.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (01:02:32.494)
get involved. Nothing wrong with that. In a way we all fall in love without having a clue who these people are really and we don't choose it, we don't choose how it kind of happens but if we keep it slow there's a chance of building a friendship and people who build a friendship there's enough spaciousness to even talk about sex, would you like sex, would you not like you know because you're not quite in the same what do they think of me, what do they think

Sally (01:02:40.291)
Mm-mm.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (01:03:01.368)
there's a friendship and a friend can say, I'd like this, would you like that? You know, like we would in a friend, friends can talk through things. And so if you slow it down, there's a chance of building a friendship as well as the romance and the hormonal erotic stuff. And that friendship is precious. Again, no judgment. Most people car crash their lives and get involved with people really quickly. But some people find that

Sally (01:03:02.193)
Hmm. Yeah.

Sally (01:03:16.341)
Mmm.

Mm.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (01:03:28.802)
doesn't happen or something happens quickly and it drops out and the hormonal stuff is quite unbalancing and that's why I'm suggesting slow if you can

Sally (01:03:34.355)
Yeah.

Yeah, so multi-date, lighter for longer. And then when would you recommend? It sounds really clinical, but how do you gauge when it's the right time to have sex with someone? Like, are we talking three months? Are we talking three weeks? Like, is there a time limit or a time frame?

Cate Mackenzie She/her (01:03:55.918)
So again, no judgements whatever anyone does because whatever's right for each person is right for them. if you can wait a month, if you can wait three weeks, mean, most people, a lot of people can't, fair dues. But if you can, what happens is you get that chance to be friends and chat. So quite often when we start having sex, we stop chatting and we want more and more, especially if we're having dopamine sex, we more more more sex, we want more and more of them.

Sally (01:04:04.894)
Yeah.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (01:04:25.526)
nothing wrong with that. But the more you can allow the friendship and the chatting to grow, you get to know them and you've built like the attachment if you want a relationship and you want it to grow. You've built something that's got an attachment system as well and you've got the kindness. And that can be really helpful for building a relationship. And we would be friends, wouldn't we? We might build a friendship, we might meet a friend.

Sally (01:04:26.25)
Yeah.

Sally (01:04:46.495)
Yeah.

Sally (01:04:50.122)
Yeah.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (01:04:52.686)
and get to know them and see them three times in a week. But you know, that's not that often, is it? Often you build a friendship over time. And if there was a friend who wanted to see you every night of the week for the first week, you'd go, why? So, but we do that with romance. We go, I wanna see you all the time. But actually it's probably wiser to take it really slow. Now, the only thing is, is the communication. Because actually if somebody's taking it really slowly with you,

they may be a really good partner, a really good attachment partner. But if somebody else might think, person's so slow, they're ghosting me. So there can be a lot of muddles. So traditionally, and of course, this is very general, not necessarily always the case, but women have often decided in two seconds, this is my person or not, and men might take six months. This is not the case for everybody, can be different. So I've worked with women and they've decided.

He is the one. And then I've worked with men and he's gone at six months. He's gone. I really like her now, but she's gone. You know, and it's because there's this. It doesn't mean men, women, could be could be gay people, could be all different people. It could be time disparity. So can you find out if you think this is a really great person? Because that's just a good sign if someone's slow. It's actually a good sign.

Sally (01:05:57.045)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Sally (01:06:05.813)
Could be any, yeah.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (01:06:20.462)
So the faster person might be also a fast burner. can be a really good, but can you gently without pressing find out a little bit? They might be busy, but if they're slow, it could be good. So it's just dependent. it's you want to, you want to, it's difficult because we've all got attachment systems and we tell stories. well, they're doing that. So well that, and that's where your friends come in and your friends may go, give them a break.

Sally (01:06:36.147)
Hmm.

Sally (01:06:46.941)
Yeah, they ground you.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (01:06:50.094)
give it a chance or don't give that a chance or don't, you I would say get your friends around it and you can always have a coaching session with someone like me or someone else to help you around dating because if you haven't done it for a while, it's a whole big arena.

Sally (01:06:54.826)
Yeah.

Sally (01:07:06.451)
Yeah. Okay. I wish I knew you in my twenties. I would have needed you so much. was, I was such a, such an addict. I really, really was. I was like really into the dopamine so fast into it, scaring them off.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (01:07:10.51)
Aww, he's so lovely, he's so lovely. Aww, thank you.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (01:07:18.568)
man, wasn't? Who wasn't? Exactly. Exactly, I get it. So tough, isn't it, being in your twenties? I think lot of young people are amazing. I've met a lot of young people and they seem to know who they are. And I'm like, how have you got there? Because I've struggled in my twenties. was like, my goodness, such a struggle. exactly, so thank you for that. But I also think, you know,

Sally (01:07:26.453)
Mm.

Sally (01:07:41.599)
Yeah, me too.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (01:07:46.83)
In women, their brains are not formed till they're 25. Not fully formed. don't have a fully... And in boys, it's 30. So we don't have a fully functioning prefrontal cortex, which is the part that gives us consciousness that makes us stop and think. That's not fully formed. So that's why, you know, we can do all these mad things and end up doing stuff. We go, how did that happen? Because this is not fully on board. Right? So that's why they enjoy young men in the city.

Sally (01:07:50.334)
Okay.

Sally (01:08:00.82)
Yeah.

Sally (01:08:12.117)
Yeah.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (01:08:15.662)
because they know they'll take risks.

Sally (01:08:17.961)
Yes, wow, you have so much wisdom and knowledge and you're making me see things really clearly and differently. So I love it, love that. absolutely. That's why young men go to war as well. That's why they're easy to recruit for the military. Yeah, young people, I should say.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (01:08:26.286)
bless you.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (01:08:29.9)
Yes, yes, yes, yes, haven't quite got that part that goes what, what, you know, and so they can, they use them, which is awful actually for them, because there are consequences to that. But also then it's recognizing what kind of partner are you with? Are you kind of with a partner that's that kind of risk taking, which you might have all that fun dopamine experience and think, or

Sally (01:08:47.231)
Yeah.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (01:08:59.298)
Do have a partner that's going to like devote to you and cherish you? They may both do that, but really recognizing, well, what kind do you want or need? And that may open your body in different ways. Like some people won't, their bodies won't open if the person didn't do some dopamine sex. So, you know, everybody's, I worked with a couple once, it was so lovely. He was so kind that he was in love with her madly and he wouldn't use dirty language or whatever, you know.

Sally (01:09:09.118)
Yeah.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (01:09:29.058)
I love your butt, I will love your boobs, I love you. He wouldn't say this to her, he thought it was demeaning to her, but she didn't feel turned on if he didn't. So I just had to do some exercises while I helped him. And a lot of guys are like this, because they're frightened of being a pervert, a predator and harming their woman. But in fact, she wants to know she's absolutely desired. And so it's also helping people navigate and move into spaces.

Sally (01:09:39.86)
Yeah.

Sally (01:09:49.853)
Yeah.

Sally (01:09:58.567)
I'm nodding along like, yes, yes, you've got it, I've got to get my husband to watch this.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (01:10:04.108)
It's not easy for blokes. It's really not easy, especially in the modern era, because of this stuff about being predatory. So it's not easy. But actually, women want to be wanted in a heterosexual relationship, but also other relationships. Women in lesbian relationships, gay relationships, want to be wanted. They want to feel hot. They want to feel desired.

Sally (01:10:07.58)
No.

Sally (01:10:12.371)
Yes.

Sally (01:10:25.791)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's that, yeah. That need and that longing to feel desired. it definitely sparks something within you when you get a sense that someone desires you. So we're wrap things up, Kate. Thank you so much for this. We've gone over time a little bit and we did have a technical issue halfway through. So I hope that's not been too disruptive for people. But...

Cate Mackenzie She/her (01:10:38.998)
Massive.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (01:10:42.753)
Thank you.

Sally (01:10:50.685)
You have got some lovely courses and workshops coming up. Would you like to give yourself a little shout out and say, first of all, how people can connect with you on social media, your website, and also the workshops you've got going on.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (01:10:56.856)
Very common.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (01:11:00.974)
very cool.

My website is Kate McKenzie.com Kate with a C and McKenzie's a c k e n z i e dot com. Instagram is Kate McKenzie Kate with a C Kate McKenzie. Facebook is Kate Love Coach. Twitter is at Kate McKenzie. And I have an attachment workshop this Sunday, 24th of November, five till seven with seed talks on my website. What is your attachment style? How are you attaching and

how can you become more regulated? And then I'm doing a six week attachment course in February with Seed Talks about how do you relate sexually, your attachment styles, and how can you make this work for you with others as well? And how can you recognise others' attachment styles and your own and hopefully get them more flowing? And also have an Open Your Heart workshop on December the 18th in the evening online, seven till nine, which is about

really coming into your body and your heart because your heart may say very different things when we take the time to be with our heart. So listening into your heart and what visions you want to create for 2025. The next year I have more works as a bridging six week course, which is a deep dive into communication that's not up there yet, nor is the six week. The six week one will be up this Thursday. So I've got various courses on sex, dating and relating on my website and opening your heart. So yeah.

Thank you so much. And I've got podcasts and articles. So thank you, Sally, very much. Very, very lovely to be with you.

Sally (01:12:32.413)
Wow.

Sally (01:12:41.045)
you're so welcome. Thank you so much for your beautiful, the beautiful energy that you bring and the way you describe this. I said, you do make it really accessible for people. You don't make it weird and icky and, you know, obviously you're a sex therapist, so I wouldn't imagine you would, but, you know, it's a hard subject for people to listen about. You know, it can be laden with so much stuff, as you say, shame, trauma.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (01:12:55.726)
Hello.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (01:13:09.048)
very much.

Sally (01:13:10.995)
all sorts of weirdness, know, attachment patterns, attachment styles, jealousy, so much, difficult emotions that we can't, yeah. Exactly. So thank you so much. You're an asset.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (01:13:17.544)
Yeah, getting it wrong, getting it right. Exactly. Yeah. And thank you. I'm so grateful for you saying that because that means a lot because of the stress around sex. You know, it means a lot to be, to think that I could put things in a gentle, accessible way. Yeah. Thank you.

Sally (01:13:33.311)
Yeah.

Sally (01:13:38.963)
Yeah, you really do. Thank you so much.

Cate Mackenzie She/her (01:13:41.826)
Bless you, Sally. Well, you do a brilliant job. So thank you very much. Bless you.