175 Self-Discovery in the Face of Burnout with Claire Hopkins

Join me and Claire Hopkins in our raw and unfiltered conversation about self-discovery in the face of burnout.

Claire shares her personal experiences with burnout, discussing the signs, symptoms, and the impact of perimenopause on mental health, and in this conversation, we talk about:

🌱 Claire's Personal Journey with Burnout

🌱 Understanding Burnout: Signs and Symptoms

🌱 The Impact of Perimenopause on Burnout

🌱 Recovery and Self-Discovery

🌱 The Role of Childhood Trauma in Burnout

🌱 Understanding Learned Helplessness and Empowerment

🌱 Resetting the Nervous System: Practices for Balance

🌱 Workplace Culture and Its Impact on Burnout

So if you’re ready to be educated and inspired, tune in now.

Claire’s Links:

Website: https://www.metanoialifestyle.co.uk/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/clare-hopkins-29851532/

Sally's Links:

[Free] Relaxation Hypnosis Recording:  https://bit.ly/relaxationwithsally

How to Create Phenomenal Self Esteem [£47]:  https://www.sallygarozzo.com/selfesteem

Menopause Wellbeing Practitioner [£127] https://www.sallygarozzo.com/meno

Cold Water Therapy Practitioner [£127] https://www.sallygarozzo.com/cold

Transformational 30 Day Rewire (Includes RTT) [£447]: https://www.sallygarozzo.com/rapid-transformational-therapist

Transformational Trauma Informed Coaching [From £197]:  https://www.sallygarozzo.com/transformational-coaching 

Instagram:  https://www.instagram.com/sallygarozzomindmentor

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sallygarozzo/

Send me a voice clip via What’s App - https://wa.me/message/FTARBMO7CRLEL1

Transcript

Sally (00:01.368)
So my guest today is Claire Hopkins. Claire is a menopause coach and guide specializing in helping women struggling with burnout during the menopause transition. She shows women how to reclaim their mental wellbeing and regain control of their life, both of which lay the foundations for transforming their menopause journey and creating a more authentically fulfilling life going forward. So Claire, welcome to the pod. How are you doing today, lovely?

Clare Hopkins (00:30.394)
I'm good, thank you. Thanks for inviting me to come on.

Sally (00:33.326)
I'm so excited because actually I'm particularly interested in the topic of burnout because boy have I experienced burnout myself. I actually had no idea what the feeling was that I was experiencing when I first experienced it. I think I was about 37, 38, something like that. I was in the final year of my degree. I was a late bloomer when I went to university.

Clare Hopkins (00:41.124)
Hmm.

Sally (01:00.382)
And it was beyond exhaustion. was like an ill exhaustion feeling. And then a few years later, I discovered what it was, burnout, low cortisol, as a result of cortisol being jammed up high for a long time. And interestingly, I was then able to trace back, right back to an episode when I was 15 years old, of having this weird...

Clare Hopkins (01:08.678)
Mm.

Sally (01:30.246)
ill, exhausted kind of sensation. So it was really interesting for me that I mean the whole kind of burnout thing's been really really interesting and obviously now I recognise it and we were just chatting before we came on about you know recognising it and nipping it in the bud before it happens. So yeah burnout I'm so curious about it.

Clare Hopkins (01:47.174)
Mm.

Sally (01:54.744)
Claire, no one gets to be a burnout expert without having experienced it themselves. So please do, I'd love for you to share your story of burnout and how you came to be this expert in burnout that you are today.

Clare Hopkins (02:09.946)
Okay, thanks Sally. Gosh, think if I'm sort of thinking back, I probably went through two episodes of Burnout. The first episode of Burnout was, I think, when my kids were sort of younger and sort of juggling working full-time, the kids, the home, you know, all of that and...

I was also studying as well. So I studying to do my CIPD because my career previously was in HR. And I think I was just trying to keep on top of everything, trying to prove myself as a new sort of HR professional, trying to be a good mom, know, and just balancing and just juggling everything. And for me, think looking back now, having gone through recovery with Burnout, there were so many signs there.

that I was struggling, you know, and I kind of sort of, didn't realize it was burnout at the time, but I managed to sort of have sort of a period where I kind of was able to recoup myself and kind of, I suppose, start to sort of make some changes to help to adapt my lifestyle. And so I managed to sort of come through that.

The second time I went through burnout was back in sort of, would say 2018 now. And I definitely really, I would say there was so much going on. I was working in quite a high-pressured role. So by this stage, you know, I was now sort of head of HR, I'd worked my way up in my profession. My kids were sort of teenagers, so there was all stuff going on with that.

And there was a lot of pressure in the workplace, you know, in terms of the role I had, there was lots of work I was working on. for me, it was, I think there was one final straw on top of managing everything. I also had a bereavement of somebody that was close to me as well. And I think that was the final straw for me. And it all kind of came crashing down in sort of spring of 2018.

Sally (04:12.813)
Hmm.

Clare Hopkins (04:20.044)
and I ended up taking a few months off of work, started working with a coach who really helped me to start to process what had been going on. And there was definitely elements of things that had happened in the past where I think from my childhood, if I think back to sort of childhood trauma and things, there was certainly things around that that I hadn't dealt with that I think were contributing factors in terms of how I

felt I needed to be that people pleaser, needed to have it all together, needed to be perfect, you know, all of these things that kind of contribute to I feel burnout. And just had to keep going and suppress how I was feeling as long as everybody else was okay. And as long as I was doing a good job in all of the roles that I had. And I do, you know, when I've talked about this before, when I've shared my story, I do really liken that period to

Sally (04:57.742)
Mm.

Clare Hopkins (05:18.414)
what I would describe as silent drowning. was like, I felt like on the surface, if you were to look at me at that time, you know, you know, I lived in a nice area, was happily married, had these two gorgeous lads, great career, I'd worked my way up, you know, all of these things, you know, all look great on the surface, but underneath, I was struggling so hard, know, treading water, just trying to keep going, trying to keep on top of everything for so long. And

You know, I just think that it's this sort of mask that we wear sometimes with burnout and you try to make it look like everything's okay, but it's not. And inside you're really faltering. So, yeah, so 2018 was that major sort of burnout and that took me quite a few months to recover from. And I was working with a coach during that time. And it was during that time that I realized that HR wasn't the career for me anymore.

Sally (05:57.079)
Yeah.

Clare Hopkins (06:17.07)
I was in quite a toxic environment which I thought I could, you know, I could deal with. thought I could make it right. But I realised that actually I needed to get out and I needed to make a different choice for myself. So yeah.

Sally (06:28.279)
Yeah.

And many people often think when they are in that toxic environment that it's their fault that they're not able to cope with, you know, the pressures or they're somehow flawed within themselves or not strong enough or not resilient enough to handle it. You know, it's my fault. I should be stronger. It's my fault. I should be able to stand up for myself and all of that stuff. But actually, it's the environment that's toxic and not conducive to

Clare Hopkins (06:34.468)
Mmm.

Clare Hopkins (06:38.16)
Yes.

Clare Hopkins (06:46.95)
Mmm.

Sally (06:59.694)
you know, mental stability, going through menopause, all of that stuff. So you, you pulled yourself out of that. sounds like that was the right move for you.

Clare Hopkins (07:09.39)
Yes, yeah, definitely. think if I was being really honest with myself, and I know I said this to the coach I was working with at the time, I think I was in that role probably after three weeks and I knew that this wasn't right. But I kept thinking, you know, I'm always one of these people that have these rose tinted sort of glasses that feel that I can always change things and look at things in a different way.

And that's very much what I did. And I thought I could really make that difference, but it was a real challenge. And I had to concede my own health at the end of the day. It was time to get out. Yeah, it was definitely.

Sally (07:45.676)
Yeah, your body always tells you eventually, doesn't it? And then you can trace it back and go, my body was telling me, you know, three weeks in, but I ignored it because didn't have enough information or didn't quite understand that that voice was your intuition or, you know, felt that you should be stronger or this is just what people do. You know, I think this generation were raised with the narrative that women can have it all.

Clare Hopkins (07:49.988)
Yes. Yeah.

Clare Hopkins (07:57.05)
Yes.

Clare Hopkins (08:10.278)
Mm.

Clare Hopkins (08:15.738)
Yes.

Sally (08:16.51)
that belief that women can have it all and of course you can have it all but there is a price to pay I think for that on our physical bodies especially when we hit menopause we might be able to have it all in our 20s and 30s but when we hit menopause it's body requires something different so for people that don't really understand burnout

Clare Hopkins (08:23.546)
definitely.

Sally (08:40.782)
Can you explain what it is, what's going on in the body, in the nervous system, maybe with the hormones, and possibly like how to spot the signs of burnout?

Clare Hopkins (08:53.454)
Yeah, I mean, one thing I was just going to say as well, when you mentioned about the menopause as well, I was also going through perimenopause at that time as well. So I did have that sort of double whammy of burnout and going through the hormonal changes of that. And yeah, that was that that was quite a challenge. But I mean, burnout is really it's that it's everything. It's that physical, that mental, that emotional kind of exhaustion. It's a point where you can't

you just can't continue anymore. And I think it leaves you with a real emptiness inside, almost like a numbness because your nervous system has just, you know, we're meant to sort of experience stress, a certain amount of stress, but it's meant to be for short periods of time. But what happens with, you know, when you get to burnout is you've sustained high levels of stress over a prolonged period of time.

And you it just, you never system just cannot function like that. And so what happens is, is, you know, we, we, we go into this state of often freeze. I, I, my, my own experience and speaking to my clients, it's like this numbness, this, this state of freeze for a lot of people where, know, you, just feel empty. It's like you lose your sense of self.

and you just don't feel like you have any control over yourself, over what's going to happen in your life. And so it's this thing of helplessness added to the exhaustion that you kind of feel. I just think, I mean, I often talk about the 12 stages of burnout because I think for me, that's a really useful tool for people to just have in front of them sometimes if they're noticing that they're feeling levels of stress.

it's actually, well, where is it stressed and when does it become burnout? You know, how far are you on that scale to reaching burnout? So I do think that it's important for people to perhaps look at those 12 stages of burnout to really identify where they are, where they could be on there so that they can seek that support sooner. And I also feel as well that it's also very much linked with the sort of a few

Clare Hopkins (11:11.242)
are aware of this mental health continuum where you've got mental wellness at one end and you've got the mental illness at the other end of that spectrum. For me, burnout is when you've reached that other end where you're in mental illness and there's lots of signs that you can look at. If you look at that mental health continuum in terms of where you're moving from mental wellness to reacting.

to then that mentally injured before you reach that illness. So I think that it's really important for people to have a look at both of those tools to raise their level of awareness of the different stages and where they could be in terms of burnout. But I yeah, I think that for me is perhaps the most important.

Sally (11:53.858)
Hmm.

Clare Hopkins (12:01.239)
is having that self-awareness within yourself and noticing where the stress is starting to become more frequent, that you're reaching sort of those levels of burnout where you really do need to seek support or start to make some changes.

Sally (12:07.981)
Hmm.

Sally (12:17.228)
Yeah, I think we are becoming more self-aware as a society. I know the young ones, the new generation coming up are so self-aware and I think that's really good actually, although I think we can sometimes have too much self-awareness and that can create anxiety in and of itself, but when it comes to, especially through the menopause transition, know, being aware of what can happen, what

Clare Hopkins (12:23.162)
Mm-hmm

Clare Hopkins (12:26.714)
Yes.

Clare Hopkins (12:32.314)
Mm.

Sally (12:44.098)
what may happen, what might be happening within us. And then having that scale, like you say, that spectrum of mental and physical wellbeing. So I think it's very useful to understand what those 12 stages of burnout are. Would you mind explaining a few of them?

Clare Hopkins (12:47.949)
Mm-hmm.

Clare Hopkins (12:57.286)
Mm.

Clare Hopkins (13:05.683)
Yes, I mean, for me, mean, the sort of first sort of few stages that there are so you know, the first sort of three stages, I would say, is where somebody is really sort of really noticing that they're working quite hard and starting to feel that initial sort of feelings of stress. And they're just working harder and harder. And for me, that's when you start noticing the signs where you're perhaps missing your lunch breaks, you're not

getting a break from your desk, you're sitting down, perhaps you're not going up to get a drink. So it's those sorts of initial small signs where you're starting to notice it's just sort of, you know, feeling a bit stressed, but you know, you can still cope. But I do think that you will perhaps start leaning. I know I did.

was you may look to alcohol. at the end of a really stressful day, you go home and have a very large glass of wine, you know, to try and reduce that level of stress that you're feeling. So you're starting to look to coping mechanisms, I would say, in those early sorts of stages. Then in the next sort of range of stages, sort of, I'd say four to six, this is where you're becoming more aware of how stressed you are. And this is where...

Sally (13:58.434)
Mm.

Clare Hopkins (14:17.902)
you may have some emotional outbursts at this stage because it's all starting to feel a bit too much to you and I would say in these stages that your relationships start to become more affected because you're starting to feel more irritable, things are starting to feel more overwhelming to you, your sleep is starting to be affected now, you're waking up at two, three o'clock and there's things on your mind.

And so the stress is really starting to show in those ways you may be experiencing some brain fog because of the elevated levels of cortisol, gastrointestinal problems, because it's all linked with your nervous system. So these are the starts of things that the physical symptoms are really starting to show, I would say, in the next few stages. And then as you kind of move forward into the next sort of stages, I would say sort of seven to eight.

This is when I would say it starts to become a you notice you start to withdraw, you start to withdraw, maybe you don't want to go out friends are inviting you out, but you're just too exhausted. And you just want to kind of withdraw and go within yourself, have time alone to yourself, might not want to do so much with your partner or family. And this is where I feel you start to notice that increasing loss of sense of self, because you are starting to feel that emptiness.

Sally (15:19.779)
you

Clare Hopkins (15:36.89)
you're starting to wonder what is the purpose in all of this, you're working hard and it's just feeling too much. And then when you kind of get to the latter stages, the sort of 11, 12, for me, this is where you are feeling just completely frozen, you can sit, you will be doom scrolling, you will be Netflixing, you just don't know what to do with yourself because everything just feels overwhelmed, you're exhausted mentally, physically, emotionally, and...

you know, most likely this point, you know, you may even be having and perhaps before that, I know I certainly did, is you almost have suicidal ideation, to be honest, because for me, it just got to the point where I just couldn't cope. And it just felt so much that it almost felt like it was just so mentally so hard to deal with that that was an option that you started to think about.

Sally (16:20.952)
Yeah.

Clare Hopkins (16:33.082)
And so yeah, so and that at those points, that's, know, you really do need to be seeking some support. So I think it's that gradual progression really that happens for people over those stages. And you really don't obviously want to get to the latter stages. Yeah.

Sally (16:47.042)
Yeah.

No, Yeah, I mean, like you, have experienced that high level of burnout where I've just thought, what's the point? Like, you know, you're kind of, I know this is a bit doom and gloomy, but hopefully, you know, if anyone's listening to this and they are feeling like that, you are not alone. You are not alone. And I know even when you are feeling like that, it's so hard to reach out, but reaching out can often help.

Clare Hopkins (16:56.166)
Mmm.

Clare Hopkins (17:09.273)
No.

Sally (17:19.19)
you know, just to sort of, I don't like the thought of anyone suffering in silence. And I know that if someone sent me, if a friend of mine sent me a message like that, I would do whatever I could to support them. So yeah, you know, if you are feeling like that, then please do reach out to someone. It's so important. If you just like, even send a message, help, I feel like shit, I don't know what to do. Just sort of explaining how you're feeling.

Clare Hopkins (17:44.57)
Yeah.

Sally (17:48.498)
let someone help you. And I think that's the other wound that women have is this belief that we need to do it all ourselves. And if we need to ask for help, then it's like, it's embarrassing, there's shame around it. And clearing all of that sort of narrative, maybe looking at where that comes from, but also making a decision that it's, it doesn't have to be shameful. It's actually an act of bravery and an act of courage.

for you to reach out and get the help that you need. And it might be so quick. Like I think this is the trouble with burnout. think a lot of burnout is caused by disconnection and isolation and not feeling safe and not feeling supported. And I know for me, a quick conversation with someone will make me zoom across to that beginning part of the spectrum.

I can be sort of edging towards that hopelessness and a quick conversation with someone and I'm back there and I'm like, okay, wow, that was quick. Because the hormones are changing, the nervous system is changing with that social interaction. And you're right in what you say, that sort of isolation period that we go through because we're so utterly exhausted and we don't feel we can talk to anyone.

Clare Hopkins (18:58.831)
Hmm.

Clare Hopkins (19:07.206)
Hmm.

Sally (19:10.986)
is something that we do have to consider as well. But I also think that that isolation can make things worse. So quickly getting understanding where we are on the spectrum and what we need to do to get us back a step can be super, super helpful. Thank you so much for explaining all of that. think that's really, it's really informative. And I think for anyone listening, maybe you might want to just draw it out for yourself. I'm sure there's probably an image on the internet that you can grab.

Clare Hopkins (19:39.994)
Yes.

Sally (19:40.834)
But yes, the emotional outbursts are interesting as well because I think as women, we tend to feel like we're labeled with that hysterical kind of label. And I think we can try and suppress that because we don't want to be labeled as like the mad woman or the hysterical one, but actually what-

Clare Hopkins (19:46.477)
Yes.

Sally (20:08.566)
What we need to do is discharge those emotions if we are moving up that scale. You know, letting go of those feelings, crying can be really helpful. You know, having a good scream and a good shout is really good to discharge. But equally good for you to notice that you might be, you know, where you might be going, where this might be heading and putting some plans in place to move you back down that spectrum.

So why are women at increased risk of burnout during perimenopause, would you say?

Clare Hopkins (20:49.338)
For me, think, I would say it's sort of twofold. So the first one I would say is because the perimenopause, well, the menopausal transition, it really is obviously, it's more than just a fertility sort of issue, say, or reproductive sort of issue. It's also neurological. So, you know, it does start in the brain. And I don't know if you've read Dr. Lisa Musconi's book.

Sally (21:10.306)
Yeah.

Clare Hopkins (21:19.202)
the menopause brain, but she's done some groundbreaking research and it really does show pre-menopause, perimenopause and post-menopause, what's actually happening within a woman's brain. And she's actually sort of saying that we need to redefine the menopausal transition as a neuroendocrine state. It's a transitional state because what's happening in our brains is as our hormones are fluctuating to gradually decline,

our brain is needing to go through a whole sort of readaption, you know, and what happens is, is as it's going through that adaption, it's causing a lot of these neurological issues that women do complain of, such as the brain fog, the memory lapses, you know, all of these sorts of symptoms, which are the top sort of, I think it's out of the eight out of the top 10 symptoms that women tend to experience during the menopausal transition are all neurological based.

because of the changes that are happening in their brain. And also because of the level of stress, I think, within society today, and the roles, like you say, women, you know, are trying to sort of have it all. is this sort of generation that going through this at the moment. you know, our cortisol hormones, you know, do work in tandem with our sex hormone.

Sally (22:18.136)
Yeah.

Clare Hopkins (22:43.182)
And so basically, you know, we are in a situation where there is sort of almost this cortisol still that takes place, which Dr. Musconi talks about in a book where basically there's this molecule, I think it's called pregnenolone. And basically the sex hormones and the cortisol will work in tandem with these molecules. And what will happen is when we're in a highly stressed state, this, basically it will cause this cortisol still basically.

Sally (23:12.334)
Yeah.

Clare Hopkins (23:12.794)
So what happens is we've already got lower levels of oestrogen, which our brain is trying to cope with anyway, and then added to the cortisol still that's happening, it just increases the likelihood of the symptoms that women are likely to experience. So there is a lot happening neurologically for women around that time. So if they've got a lot happening in their life, which does happen around the sort of midlife sort of area, you've got...

kids growing up leaving home, you've got aging parents that need you more on top of trying to work on top of everything else. So it's just it's just it just builds up to this point where burnout is more prevalent, I feel in women that are going through perimenopause because of everything that's going on internally, but also externally around them and how they manage and cope with all of that.

Sally (24:00.994)
new.

Yeah, yeah, you're right. There is a lot going on. There's so much going on at this time because of those neurological changes. I know for me, I was like, I mean, I really have. I say this a lot on the podcast, but I really do feel like a totally different person, like completely different. Inside my whole identity has shifted and it's continuing to shift and I'm continuing to.

Clare Hopkins (24:09.307)
Yeah.

Sally (24:31.008)
readdress the balance, you know, all day, every day. It's like, who do I feel like I need to be right now? Like, what does my body want right now? I'm always asking that question. What does my body need? What does my brain need to improve that stress resilience? Because yeah, like I remember just having awful, awful, continuous burnout episodes. Like I would recover and then go back into the pattern.

Clare Hopkins (24:44.742)
Mm.

Sally (25:00.782)
and then get burnt out again and then go back into the pattern and then get burnt out again. Just this constant on off, on off, on off. you it's, you're training, you're training for a new version of yourself. You know, this is what I think the medicine is in all of this really. It's just this sort of...

this whole new way of being. So what has recovery looked like for you Claire?

Clare Hopkins (25:34.23)
Recovery for me has, first and foremost, it was about developing that self awareness and understanding myself. think a lot of us tend to go through life, you sort of grow up, you get a job, you get married, you have kids, you kind of follow this sort of societal sort of expectations of you. But I don't feel that we often pause to think about well,

who we are, what do we want, what are our needs, our preferences. And for me, that was that opportunity to do that, to work with a coach and really for the first time, sit down and thought, actually, who am I? What do I want? You know, what do I need? so recovery was very much a self-discovery process for me.

And it was drawing out, well, you know, from my HR role, there was definitely elements that I loved of my profession and it was working with people, was helping them to develop, to grow. So that's where the coaching came in. That was the career that really has been born from my recovery. I retrained as a coach and my sort of the coaching that I do is kind of evolved as I've noticed patterns in the type of women that I've been working with.

which is why it's taken me through to menopause because I noticed all of the ladies that were going through burnout also happened to be going through their perimenopause stage as well. So I kind of connected the dots there with all of that. And then obviously I could see through my own experiences, you know, with all of that as well. So it's been about, yeah, that self discovery, self awareness and starting to develop a self care plan for myself.

Sally (27:00.322)
Yeah.

Clare Hopkins (27:20.93)
Instead of prioritizing everybody else, it's about looking what do I need and making sure that when I know I've got a lot going on, it's noticing the signs and noticing and planning in those rest breaks, the different types of rest that, you know, we all kind of need. So yes, I would say it's been about that. And there was also

a lot of dealing with allowing myself to feel emotions that I'd suppressed as well and dealing with some of the trauma that went back to my childhood as well. That was a big element of that and healing from some of that as well. That was a big part of it. Yeah. No.

Sally (28:00.551)
There's no escaping the childhood trauma is there. And what many people don't realize in the conversation that I'm seeing a lot online as well is what trauma actually is. I mean, there's trauma and there's complex trauma. So trauma tends to be like big T, know, big events that have happened to people. And when you say

Clare Hopkins (28:12.943)
Yes.

Sally (28:26.722)
tell me about your childhoods. it's great. know, nothing bad ever happened. It's like, okay, that's big T. Let's go to complex trauma because complex trauma is way more insidious and flies under the radar. And it's like, it's like, let's look at the childhood needs. These are your needs as a child. Were all of those needs met? Huh? Okay. No, maybe not. Maybe the fundamental ones were like the need for safety, the needs, you know, for.

for clothes and shelter and food. Then we have the need for like love and belonging. Maybe those were met, but maybe your need for like autonomy wasn't met. So kids have a need for exploration and to find out what their preferences are. And maybe your parent was a bit controlling. Maybe that made you feel like you couldn't trust yourself or couldn't make a decision for yourself. Maybe that was disempowering. How do you act out that disempowerment today?

You know, there's so much of it that we don't even realise is trauma. mean, essentially trauma is about how, about our attachments and how, you know, the quality of those attachments. And, you know, we have a big one that is our need for emotional safety, our need to express our authentic self. And if you were raised by a baby boomer that had to have that stiff upper lip,

Clare Hopkins (29:53.52)
Mm-hmm.

Sally (29:55.768)
post-war, let's just get on with it, you're lucky to be alive, you know, that sort of attitude. And also the economy was different back then as well, going into the sixties, everything was booming and flush. And of course things are a lot different now. So yeah, I find that in a lot of my clients, I'm sure you see this too, this emotional bypassing that they do as a result of

not being allowed to cry, not being allowed to be angry, not being allowed to be disappointed, not being allowed to express certain needs or emotions as a child. And then you can go the other way as well, I won't go into this too much, but in the sort of very happy childhood, I always wonder about that too, if there might be some kind of enmeshment weirdness going on there. So even in that where,

where parents and kids are too close, there's too much of a bond. You often see that in male clients with their moms or female clients with their dads. It's like this kind of overt, covertly sexualized relationship which can contribute to trauma as well. And these are the things that we don't recognize as being traumatic. But when we start to unpick it all, when we start going, the HRT is not working,

the SSRIs are not working. The, the diets not working. all my sleep hygiene hacks are not working. I still feel like shit. I'm still exhausted. That's when we have to, as you say, go into that self discovery process because we recognizing it's a behavioral issue that's contributing to.

factors that often we aren't even aware of, like showing up in a toxic work environment and that being okay, you know, or saying yes to everything or having these high expectations and that being okay. It's like, why is that okay? How, where have we learned that? And then unpicking and unraveling is quite an eye opener, isn't it? Like, how did you feel when you were going through your coaching and realized all this stuff?

Clare Hopkins (32:20.472)
I think at the core I kind of knew that I needed to deal with it at some point but had kept suppressing it and when I did deal with it I feel like I sometimes think it's also a question of timing so I don't think I was ready to deal with it before

Sally (32:29.398)
Right.

Sally (32:45.709)
Yeah.

Clare Hopkins (32:46.874)
But some think about that time was just the right time for me to finally deal with that, to process what went on and to, yeah, to not take responsibility for that. think that was the thing and have that radical acceptance that your parents are who they are, they're who they needed to be. And, you know, you have to understand that, you you have different needs.

Sally (32:54.978)
Right.

Clare Hopkins (33:14.118)
They may not have been met then, but you can meet them now. so I think, yeah, some of it was timing, I think, for me to deal with that. Mm, yes.

Sally (33:23.958)
Yeah divine timing. Yeah menopause does seem to coincide with that divine timing.

Clare Hopkins (33:33.646)
Yes, it does. does. And I do honestly think it is. And I know men go through their own kind of, Andrea Paul's, their kind of journey. And I've seen it with my husband as well. I don't know sometimes if they're quite as open to dealing with the emotions that are involved with sometimes the healing and the work that needs to be done around maybe some of the trauma.

Sally (33:43.918)
Hmm.

Clare Hopkins (34:00.294)
perhaps more, I think women seem to have more of a readiness to be able to deal with that more, I've noticed. So yeah, so I think, yeah, it's interesting how the menopause, this midlife sort of almost existential sort of wake up call that you go through, it makes you question where you are, where you've been, and where you want to go for this last sort of third of your life that you kind of have ahead of you. And

Sally (34:06.637)
Yeah.

Sally (34:27.296)
Yeah.

Clare Hopkins (34:29.19)
I've often likened it when I've worked with clients to like a bit of a hero's journey where you've got, you know, the sort of the bit where you don't realize really what's going on inside you. You go through the transition and you kind of grab allies, you know, the coaches or the mentors or therapist to work with as it takes you through and you realize really who you are. So you can come out the other side. It's almost like a paradigm sort of shift almost, it feels like.

that psychological shift that you kind of go through if you allow yourself to go through that transition that way I feel.

Sally (35:04.172)
Yeah, yeah, there's a huge rewriting of the script if we listen, if we get the message, because I do think that the troubles of menopause are very invitational. And if we don't heed the call, there's a trap and that trap is to stay in that victim mode, that disempowered, that that

Clare Hopkins (35:10.223)
Yes.

Clare Hopkins (35:17.626)
Mm.

Sally (35:32.61)
that learned helplessness, you know, and that can be a childhood pattern as well. I think I did a podcast all around learned helplessness. I might pop it in the show notes or just search it because that is quite key and that can often lead us down a very disempowered route when it comes to the menopause transition if we're not getting the messages. There's always some kind of change we can make within

the circumstances of our life, whether that's shifting our attitude, shifting from negative to positive, trying to see the hope in something, gratitude. Yeah, there's always something we can do. It's like going to the gym when you're a bit incapacitated. It's like there's always something you can do. You could do a bicep curl. You could turn your head from left to right. Maybe you can...

Clare Hopkins (36:25.924)
Yes.

Sally (36:30.412)
bend down and bend back up again. You might not be able to do full blown weightlifting or, you know, run for five kilometres, but there'll be something you can do to just sort of move the needle a little bit towards the direction that you need to go in. And coming back to that rewriting the script, I know for many of my clients, and you probably see this as well, there's this, this narrative, underlying narrative of having to be the good girl. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, having to be the one that keeps it all together. Maybe maybe one of our parents has got a mental illness or there's some sort of dysfunction or maybe they work really, really hard. And the last thing they and they tell you the last thing I need is you acting out, you know. And so we we button up, we we preserve, we preserve, I don't know, the the the piece. But there's a consequence.

Clare Hopkins (37:00.666)
Yeah.

Sally (37:30.19)
in that and that consequence is usually just continuing to be the good girl and to and to meet expectations. But I don't know about you. I don't know about you. I'm like middle finger up to those expectations.

Clare Hopkins (37:40.43)
Yeah, definitely. Yeah, no.

Clare Hopkins (37:47.386)
I think you get to that point, don't you? Definitely do. Yeah, I definitely resonate with a lot of that. And yeah, you do get to a point where enough is enough. think it's like you draw that line in the sand when you're going through the recovery from burnout. It's like, am not going back there again. There's a line in the sand.

Sally (38:10.862)
Yeah.

Clare Hopkins (38:11.928)
You have to go through a period where you have to develop the courage to put in place the boundaries that you need to do to meet your needs. But those are your, yeah, they become your non-negotiables, definitely.

Sally (38:26.358)
Yeah what are some of the things that you've done to some of like the practices that you've done to help with sort of resetting your nervous system and finding that that balance and that equilibrium?

Clare Hopkins (38:43.879)
I think for me, the one thing that really helped to start off with, so I was working with a coach and she recommended sort of journaling, so getting down what I was thinking onto paper. And that really helped actually to just get that out and look at it, almost sort of observe and witness what was going on. And also,

trying to find some mental calm. So I worked quite hard on learning how to meditate. And I tried various different ways, but what I would say is I finally found a way that worked for me and I gradually built up to that. And I remember reading, I think one of the first sort of development books I read around that time was The Miracle Morning. How Elrod, I think it is that wrote that book.

And he had the savers routine and that became my routine as I started my recovery. So I would spend time in silence with my meditation, I would do a bit of reading of a SAV development book. I would basically just work through, trying to remember all of the savers now, but yeah, and I just worked through them, but those, the journaling and the meditation, just finding that place of inner peace within, knowing it was there.

Sally (39:54.574)
You

Clare Hopkins (40:05.19)
and being able to come back to that and doing that regularly, it became a morning routine for me and that kind of set me up for the day. I got intentional with how I wanted my day to be. And if things did sort of come out of misalignment, things would happen. I would pretty much come back to those. Those were the tools that really helped me. And just, I think, just making sure I made time for my other sort of

basic sort of needs because those had fallen by the wayside. So making sure that I did get proper lunch breaks and I had, you know, was drinking properly, eating good quality food, not drinking so much alcohol. So it was just those basic nutritional lifestyle things that I started to work on. But something I noticed in myself and I noticed with all my clients as well is that you can't start off with the lifestyle changes because you're just not in the headspace for that. You need to

really have that safe space to share where you're at, to get what's on your mind out, and then start to understand, well, actually, what is me and what isn't me when you start to understand how your mind works, because it can feel like you're going crazy, I think, when you're in burnout, particularly when you're going through the menopause. And so I think having somebody to talk to and be able to share that, whether or in person or journaling, is so important. And then once you can start to differentiate and understand

actually, this is just I refer to the Chimp Paradox a lot, because I think it's a brilliant book to simplify how the mind works when you understand, well, this is me being hijacked by the Chimp. This is not where I want to be. And this isn't who I am, you can start to look at, what do I want? And instead of moving to reacting all the time, you start to choose those responses. So I think it was very much a journey of becoming more intentional.

with how I wanted to show up, how I wanted my day to go and noticing when that chimp was sort of coming back in online again and dealing with that, finding ways to deal with that.

Sally (42:12.384)
Yeah, I love that. Thanks for referencing that. Such a good metaphor, actually, like recognizing the chimp because we can jump on that chimp and we can like jump on its back or it's on our back and we're like rolling with it. And then we're catastrophizing and then we're sort of ruminating and really kind of driving ourselves into a downward spiral of quite destructive thoughts. And yeah.

Clare Hopkins (42:21.412)
Yes.

Sally (42:41.506)
like I say, it's that self-awareness, isn't it? It always comes back to that self-awareness. But in order to be aware, we have to have models to understand ourselves better, like the chimp model, the 12 stages of burnout model, and the polyvagal model as well. It's really, really useful and really starting to take the world by storm. And also really like this idea of safety first.

Clare Hopkins (43:06.596)
Yes.

Sally (43:09.484)
think the first stage of recovery for most people experiencing burnout is to find safety in their body because we've gone into shutdown, haven't we? The nervous system's gone into shutdown. I know when I had my first ever Dutch test, I think it was like 2019, my cortisol level was flat. It was down. I had like no cortisol. I had high levels of cortisone, which is like this inactive form of cortisol.

Clare Hopkins (43:37.008)
Mm.

Sally (43:39.234)
but low cortisol levels, which was a sign of burnout. You know, cause my body was going, no more cortisol for you, no more cortisol, no more energy, no more like, and it's a protective response. So this freeze response is protective. And when we recognise, when we see that our body, your body's not against you, your body's just going, look, I'm trying to protect you here. Like, will listen now.

because I'm not giving you the drugs anymore. And so coming back to safety is so important. And then your body goes, okay, you're listening. She's got the message. She's got the message. Maybe we'll give her a little bit more cortisol now so she can do a couple of bicep curls. So for me,

Safety, like cultivating safety has been about rest. Resting more than I would probably like to. How else does safety look like? I'm trying to think now. Conversations actually with people, that helps me to feel safe and connected because

Clare Hopkins (44:37.318)
Mm.

Sally (44:59.918)
Part of when I'm going off the rails is when I feel isolated or alone. So reconnecting, that brings me back into that safe and social part of the parasympathetic. What do you do to help yourself get back into safety? It's that sensory stuff, isn't it?

Clare Hopkins (45:19.154)
It is. I think for me, being able to talk to somebody, there's a quote, I was just trying to think when you were talking then who was said the quote, there's a quote where it said that shame dies when stories are told in safe spaces. And that really risks, it might be Brenny Brown, actually, I've read quite a few of her books. And I feel like just having that person to talk to.

Sally (45:35.157)
Is it Brene Brown?

Clare Hopkins (45:47.172)
you know, to just share what's on your mind, that really is a big aspect to it. So you don't feel like you're going crazy, you don't feel like this is just you, you know, just having that sort of trusted person that you can speak to, I think that's so important. And when you have that safe space, it just

It's a relief. what I also think as well is that, you know, when we, go back to the chimp paradox again, you know, you're the chimps trying to tell you something, it's not your enemy. It's trying to say things are not well and listen to me. So when you're sharing, this is when you're allowing your chimp to be heard. And that's when the chimp will start to settle down. And it's like you said, you know, the message is getting through. So I think that is so important. yeah.

Sally (46:24.974)
Hmm.

Sally (46:35.905)
Yeah.

Clare Hopkins (46:40.922)
that, that, that for me is a big aspect to I would say, and then just making sure that you can then start to take the small steps. And I think that's the important thing is small steps with recovery as well, is once you are able to process what's going on in your mind, differentiate between what your body's alert system is trying to warn you about and who you are, what you want and what your needs are. Once you can start to understand that and get clarity over that, then you can start to look at well, actually, what's the next

comfortable step for me to take, you know, whether or not that's doing something a little bit of a walk once a day, know, at lunchtime or, you know, and gradually you get those feel good hormones then and you start to feel and it's just you're looking for those small wins, those small steps, and it just builds and builds from there. And you can see people start in the moods are not so low if they're checking their moods over the period that starts they start to rise again.

Sally (47:26.242)
Yeah.

Clare Hopkins (47:36.01)
And so gradually they start to feel more like themselves. It's like they're coming back online again to who they are. And then the other lifestyle changes and things you can start, feels more, they feel more able to do. I think that's the thing. They have more confidence in themselves to do that. Because like you say, when you reach burnout, there's this learned helplessness where you get to the point where...

it's what's the point in trying because everything just feels so overwhelming and you don't feel you can function in anything. So you can't see any perspectives or any opportunities, even if they are there, you won't think, you know, that you can deal with that or you could do that for yourself. So I think, yeah, having that space to talk it through, to feel safe, to let that nervous system really come back on line again, that,

parasympathetic side and so you get in that rest and really move on from there really and take action to start to change other aspects and so you start to recover.

Sally (48:34.668)
Yeah, yeah, wise words, wise words. Thank you. There's loads in there. I especially particularly like the idea of, you know, when you are in that helpless mode, it's really, really hard for you to see possibilities. And I feel that helplessness dulls creativity.

Clare Hopkins (48:39.142)
Mm.

Sally (48:56.394)
I feel that creativity, imagination, inspiration, intuition, they're these like kind of sparkly higher senses that we have. And when we're feeling well, we can easily sort of tap into them. We're plugged into those senses and it's very easy for us to use them, utilize them and move, drive things forwards, right? But when we're stuck in helplessness, we don't have access.

to those sparkly higher senses. So how do we start to move forward? Well, we start to move forward really, really slowly, really slowly and recognise the monumental wins of getting up and making your bed and taking a shower, getting your clothes on, getting your makeup on, brushing your hair and walking around the block.

Clare Hopkins (49:29.679)
Hmm.

Sally (49:52.684)
and then rewarding yourself with a cup of tea, that is a huge step in burnout recovery. And the self-talk, the inner self-talk, the positive encouragement, if we can't start physically, maybe we can start mentally. Maybe we can start by looking out the window and just appreciating something outside or imagining ourselves walking around the block, doing that mental rehearsal.

So we know how powerful visualization is actually, and it really sends a signal to the part of the brain that is responsive in actuality when we actually do the thing in real life. So it's not even controversial. People use visualization all the time to help them either progress or recover or in rehab or in athleticism or whatever level you're at. It doesn't matter what level you're at.

the process is still the same, know, so love that. The other thing I wanted to mention about safety that came into me, if you're feeling unsafe, you're feeling like you're in freeze mode or you're feeling like you're a bit jammed up in your sympathetic mode, that one or the other, anything sensory and anything soothing can be really helpful as well. So aromatherapy oils.

stroking like a furry blanket or cuddling a teddy bear. You know, I've often recommended I had a client who was ex-royal marine, okay, and feeling, it was many years ago, feeling not very good, feeling lonely, feeling helpless.

and I recommended he go and buy a teddy bear and cuddle it. And he did. He named it and he took it with him everywhere he went. And it's like that soothing, that safety. Like, I don't care who you are, you need oxytocin. Yeah, you need that safety.

Clare Hopkins (51:48.192)
Yeah.

Clare Hopkins (52:03.396)
think having pets as well, so we've got like a dog as well. So I do think that having having pets, you know, sitting with those, stroking those that releases that oxytocin as well, doesn't it really? So yeah, it does it all helps. And and I think the other thing that's just come to mind as well, just listening to you talk there about sort of, you know, the positive steps you can do to try and help yourself to recover.

is understanding that when we talk about rest, because I do think that when somebody's in burnout, it's there on go, but all the time it's like red alert, go, go, go. And the thought of resting is sometimes maybe we think is lazy or, you know, we, and sometimes that rest is sometimes just sleeping because we're not sleeping well at night sometimes. But something I came across was something called the seven types of rest, which I think is from a book.

and I can't recall the name of the book, but it's understanding there's different types of rest as well. So you've got obviously your sleep, but there's other different types. So you've got sort of digital rest where you give yourself a break from devices, for example, you've got sort of sensory, you know, where you may want to sort of just meditate or just be in a quiet space. You've got creative where you could do classes where you just take your mind off of everything. Cause you're so focused on that creativity, whether or not it's a...

Christmas wreath making workshop or you know, something like that that's coming up. Emotional rest is where you do have that safe space where you're talking to somebody to process what's going on emotionally for you. So there's there's different types of rest and if you listeners are sort of wanted to look at that, if they look up the seven types of rest, there's lots of articles and it was included in a book which the title does escape me at the minute and what it was called.

but it's a really good book to get you thinking a bit more about how you can incorporate different types of rest into your days to avoid burnout or support your recovery from burnout as well as just look at where you can incorporate more of those.

Sally (54:08.46)
That's really valuable. Thank you. I'm going to Google that myself and put that up somewhere. So I just want to dive into a little bit of a, I don't know, different trajectory. I want to talk about workplace cultures, because I know this is something that you have a lot of experience with working in HR and also going through this as well. How do workplace cultures contribute to burnout?

Clare Hopkins (54:12.836)
Yes. Yes.

Clare Hopkins (54:22.094)
Yes, yes.

Clare Hopkins (54:28.442)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Sally (54:37.694)
would you say?

Clare Hopkins (54:40.554)
I think really, first and foremost, the one thing that I noticed when I worked all those years in HR, and even when I was in the workplace just under 30 years, is that line managers, I would say, are the biggest calls of workplace stress in terms of how they manage.

how they support workers in their teams, they're the ones that would create that culture in the workplace. And a lot of managers are accidental managers. In fact, there was a study that was done, I think, by the Chartered Management Institute, which said there was 82 % of managers accidental managers. No training whatsoever on how to manage or support people in the workplace and

When you've got people in the workplace who everybody's got some level of trauma, what we were talking about before, and the, I suppose the state of how things sometimes are in the world, the volatility, the lack of security, other issues that people may be having going on. Managers are not equipped to be able to handle these sorts of sensitive conversations. They would run a mile, some of them, because they just don't know how. They've not had the training, they've not had...

they don't have the confidence to know how to deal with these situations a lot of the time. So things get left a fester and then it becomes performance issues. And really it could have been nipped in the bud much earlier. So I feel like managers not being properly trained to be managers is a big part of that workplace culture. There's also this huge drive and there has been for years and I feel it's got worse over the years for productivity.

and it's at productivity at all costs it feels. We went through the recession in 2008 and there was lots of job cuts and a lot of those roles were not replaced. People were expected who were left in the organisations to take on the extra workload and responsibilities and then we've had the COVID pandemic, there was more cuts. And so what I hear certainly from clients that are working

Clare Hopkins (56:56.566)
you know, in managerial, senior managerial roles, is the pressures that they're facing, because there is not enough people, but they're still expected to be productive and have these outputs is so great that it's leading to that burnout. And obviously, we're seeing the statistics of people reporting that they're experiencing burnout, mental health, workplace related stresses, all going up and up. And in fact, it's

bigger than it was pre sort of pre pandemic it you know, the pandemic itself didn't help. But it was already on that that sort of that steep sort of rise really. So I think for me, the productivity focus over people's well being line managers not being trained to be people managers. And the other thing I did make a note of this, it's just escaped me. Psychological safety. That was it.

So it all contributes to really a lack of psychological safety because people don't feel that there's an environment where they can share that actually they might be struggling with the medicals or the mental health. It's just not there. There's nobody there that can listen. And I just think that, you know, perhaps there's things that are happening in the workplace that are not being dealt with, maybe a bit of a bullying culture with certain people that's not being dealt with.

So, yeah, so I think that those sorts of issues create this culture which leads to burnout, like a burnout culture for those reasons.

Sally (58:33.048)
So it's like this lack of awareness really, isn't it? Sort of within workplaces. Because I always think of, know, a workplace isn't anything different than just a lot of people. Like, if people are running a workplace, it's the people who are going to be affecting the culture within the workplace. And so, you know, having trauma-informed line managers, wow, what a difference that would make.

Clare Hopkins (58:35.684)
Yes.

Clare Hopkins (58:45.446)
Mm.

Clare Hopkins (59:00.454)
Mmm.

Sally (59:00.526)
just have some level of understanding and also some level and some, you know, cultivating more sensitivity within line managers would be amazing. But in order to do that, they have to do the inner work. Cause you don't become sensitive to other people's needs if you haven't done the work yourself. So this is why, you know, and then that whole narrative around.

going to therapy is weak or I don't need therapy or nothing ever bad happens to me. Again, coming back to lack of understanding what trauma actually is. So think if we were all trauma informed, we would all understand what trauma actually was and how that impacts us and then what we can do about it. Because otherwise we're just masking, aren't we? We're just sort of gritting and not showing up authentically.

I think you call it well-being washing, don't you?

Clare Hopkins (59:59.376)
No.

Yes, it is. think, yeah, definitely. mean, people definitely can't show up as their their whole selves in those sorts of environments for sure. And there is a lot, particularly since the pandemic, there's been a lot of the wellbeing washing, which is really where a company will say they're doing all these things for wellbeing to support their employees. But actually, they're just saying it because it looks good and they're just ticking the boxes.

Sally (01:00:28.654)
Yeah.

Clare Hopkins (01:00:28.998)
you know, so they will, you know, the government say, you know, we should be getting mental health first aid, so they tick the box and get so many people trained, but then they don't provide the support framework for those individuals. And if the culture isn't great, then those individuals are basically dealing with the fallout from that, but then they're not being supported because no action is being taken. You know,

paying for gym memberships or free Fridays and all of these things. If this isn't what individuals need to support their wellbeing, then it really is just lip service to the situation. And it's always staggered me. I've worked with some fantastic CEOs and owners of businesses who really value their employees.

Sally (01:01:07.874)
Yeah.

Clare Hopkins (01:01:20.736)
And that value, you know, it shows up in how they care for the employees day to day with what they do. And that's through sort of having regular one-to-ones. It's making sure if there's an issue, they're getting to know people, you know, the managers know people and they notice when things are out of place. So if somebody suddenly has an outburst, it's all, something's not right with that person. Let's have a conversation. Let's not ignore it. What can we do for you? Maybe doing a wellbeing action plan that, you know, they've got processes in place for it.

But when they don't value, when you get leaders that don't value, I have worked for some leaders like that, employees for who they are, then they just see well-being as an additionality that's not needed for their business. And how is that going to help productivity? And they see it as pink and fluffy, know, all of these sorts of things.

Yet the statistics are just there. There's just such a wealth of statistics out there that show that when a company invests in their employees and really helps support them to develop as individuals, the return on that investment through the engagement, the innovation, like you say, we're more creative when we're not there in town because our brains are not trying to cope with that level of stress. it's, I feel like leaders really need to sort of rather than see employees as set

that they're part of this, you know, this, we're a group of individuals all working together as a shared purpose. And rather than seeing them as a sort of like a resource, I've heard horrible sort of terminologies that like we need to cut the deadwood, you know, working in HR. it's just, it's seeing individuals, employees, I would say, as separate to the organization. And actually the organization wouldn't be the organization without these people.

So I think that that's the difference between how leaders are looking at wellbeing. They need to look at them as human beings that without which you wouldn't have a business. And so if you care for them, you're caring for your business.

Sally (01:03:22.509)
Yeah.

Yes, hallelujah. Yeah, you're right. mean, people are part of the ecosystem. No people, no ecosystem, basically. And so it's sort of changing that mindset, isn't it? And yeah, you're absolutely right. I think when we had our conversation before, you were telling me about the stats and it's absolutely right there in black and white that you support people's mental wellbeing properly.

Clare Hopkins (01:03:28.015)
Yeah.

Clare Hopkins (01:03:37.606)
Yeah.

Clare Hopkins (01:03:51.109)
Mm.

Sally (01:03:55.543)
deeply, caringly, create a safe space for them, do the work on yourself as well, because you can't support others if you're not doing the work yourself. We know that as therapists and coaches. My God, yeah. It's like, it's 24 seven. Do you have to do the work on yourself? And maybe that's why people don't, because they don't want to. Maybe there's some resistance, especially in that kind of male ego world as well.

Clare Hopkins (01:04:18.638)
I do think, yeah, definitely an element.

Yes, and I think, I think this is an outdated approach as well to the workplace in the fact that it was very much, it goes back to the whole work life balance, it was separate your personal life from your work life. When in actual fact, we can't, we're human beings, we're not robots, you know, we have to, you know, we if

Sally (01:04:38.05)
Yeah.

Clare Hopkins (01:04:45.444)
If we've lost a loved one, that's going to affect how we show up at work the next day or, you know, when we return to work. So it's like we're not human. We're not robots. Sorry. We can't switch off these parts of us. And I think that's where burnout occurs is when we do try and switch off and we try to keep going and ignore actually, you know, these parts of us that make us human. And so we can't separate ourselves. And I think that is a big issue. Definitely.

where we are going to bring our whole self, which includes these parts to being human that, okay, maybe a bit messy sometimes, but we still need to be able to show up as we are. I think leaders need to embrace that. Yeah.

Sally (01:05:29.954)
Yeah, they really do. Well, what an amazing conversation, Claire. Thank you. Thank you so much. It's been really enlightening. Certainly, you know, made me think about a few things. I think I might start a little meditation practice or like get back into it again. Because I do see the value in like quietening down and just, you know, having that, just sent that moment, that moment in time where you're like, everything's okay.

Clare Hopkins (01:05:33.946)
Ha ha ha.

Sally (01:05:58.712)
like everything's okay. And coming off the screens is super helpful as well. read Andrew Huberman, or listened to Andrew Huberman talking about that the eyes are an extension of the brain. what, what your, where, how your eyes are moving, as in when you're on a phone and they're moving in that very small kind of micro, but very fast way that is sending a signal to the brain that there's like,

Clare Hopkins (01:06:13.934)
Hmm.

Sally (01:06:27.64)
that it's very, very stimulated. And of course that has a lot of connotations with the hormones. So if you stare at one point, if you just sort of softly gaze at one point for like 90 seconds, you can reset those hormones, can reset your nervous system. And I often do that and I do find it so, so helpful for, know, like.

Clare Hopkins (01:06:35.002)
Mmm.

Sally (01:06:54.674)
coming back down off that arousal cycle. So yeah, my little top tip there. Claire, thank you so much. How do you work with people? So share for a moment, you know, what you do, what offers you've got on, if people have resonated with you, how can they get in touch with you and all that jazz.

Clare Hopkins (01:07:18.67)
Okay, thank you. So I work predominantly with women one to one. So do one to one coaching. And what I would say is, the majority of women that come to me, they are on their menopausal journey. They're often in the workplace, often in a toxic workplace, and they're experiencing signs of burnout. Excuse me, and

Unfortunately, they are sort of quite late on in those 12 stages of burnout before they will reach out for help. That's something I do notice. But what I do is I really just, as I've mentioned, sort of provide that safe space for them to share where they're at and just meet them where they're at. Because it's important for them to understand, you know, that

this isn't necessarily who they are, it's just they're going through a lot at the moment. And so it's understanding what they're going through. So it's empowering them with the knowledge, what's happening to them in terms of their menopausal transition and what's happening neurologically there. It's understanding how their mind works. So they can understand what is them and what isn't them with all the conflict that they're experiencing in their mind.

And then once we get through that, so we go through almost a journey over three months of self discovery, where they start to understand who they are and start to make those changes, so that they can start to adapt their behavior so they're not reacting to everything that's going on. And they understand principle that stress isn't what happens to us, it's how we react to what's happening to us. And from that place, they start to find more inner sense of calm and what

we end up noticing as a lot of the symptoms that they were experiencing with their menopause, they start to lessen because a lot of them are similar to the stress symptoms. There's a real parallel there with the two. So they then are able to make sort of different changes, which they go on to do after our coaching them with lifestyle, you know, with nutrition, exercise, we kind of set them up for that kind of journey.

Clare Hopkins (01:09:25.35)
I do have a course that I'm going to be promoting, I would say beginning of next year, which is about how to navigate your menopausal transition. Really sort of, I'm trying to condense what I do on my coaching program into like a course so that people can do that self-paced, but I think I'm going to do that live as well. And I'm just putting together the finishing touches for my first group program.

Sally (01:09:43.608)
Mm-hmm.

Sally (01:09:49.015)
Lovely.

Clare Hopkins (01:09:50.458)
So yes, I'm quite excited about that. so yes, so lots happening really. So I also do webinars in the workplace as well. So if people are wanting to understand a bit more about the menopause, I can come in and or deliver online webinars for that as well to support.

Sally (01:10:08.172)
Yeah brilliant and what's your email, sorry what's your website?

Clare Hopkins (01:10:13.998)
My website is metanoialifestyle.co.uk. So that's M-E-T-A-N-O-I-A, Metanoia Lifestyle. It actually came about on my recovery from burnout because it was a Greek name that I came across, a word I should say, which means a change of mind, self, way of life.

Sally (01:10:24.755)
where did that name come from?

Sally (01:10:40.654)
Wow.

Clare Hopkins (01:10:40.87)
And that's what it felt like for me when I came through my menopausal journey and my recovery from burnout. And it just felt like it's a new way of life. And so that's where Metanoa Lifestyle was born really. So yeah, so that's the name.

Sally (01:10:46.411)
Yeah.

Sally (01:10:55.594)
Lovely. It's a beautiful word, I like it. And where are you most active on social media?

Clare Hopkins (01:11:00.678)
Thank you, yeah.

I would say LinkedIn is probably my sort of place. That's where I'm most active. I have got a Facebook page, I do find that just LinkedIn just seems to be my place. like to be. So yeah, LinkedIn, you can find me there.

Sally (01:11:15.564)
Yeah.

Lovely. Thank you so much Claire, really enjoyed it.

Clare Hopkins (01:11:22.128)
Thank you. Thank you.