170 Menopause, Dubai & The Workplace with Kelli Davis

Join me in my conversation with Kelli Davis, founder of Tendrmint and a certified menopause and life coach who is passionate about empowering women through the menopause transition. In this episode, we talk about:

🌱 How the menopause narrative is evolving in Dubai.
🌱 Kelli’s personal story with symptoms.
🌱 What employers need to do to create safe spaces for women going through the menopause.
🌱 How life changes for someone going through menopause and the challenges that raises.
🌱 The impact of early menopause.
🌱 Questioning societal expectations of motherhood.
🌱 The one thing that can really empower a woman going through menopause and beyond.

Please join us for this lovely conversation to get a dose of comfort and inspiration.

Kelli’s Links:

Website: https://www.tendrmint.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kelli.l.davis

Sally's Links:

[Free] Relaxation Hypnosis Recording: https://bit.ly/relaxationwithsally

How to Create Phenomenal Self Esteem [£47]:  https://www.sallygarozzo.com/selfesteem

Menopause Wellbeing Practitioner [£127] https://www.sallygarozzo.com/meno

Cold Water Therapy Practitioner [£127] https://www.sallygarozzo.com/cold

Transformational 30 Day Rewire (Includes RTT) [£447]: https://www.sallygarozzo.com/rapid-transformational-therapist

Transformational Trauma Informed Coaching [From £197]:  https://www.sallygarozzo.com/transformational-coaching 

Instagram:  https://www.instagram.com/sallygarozzomindmentor

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sallygarozzo/

Send me a voice clip via What’s App - https://wa.me/message/FTARBMO7CRLEL1

Transcript

Sally (00:01.518)
So my guest today is Kelly Davis, and she is the founder of Tendermint, which is a business that helps anyone going through the menopause transition. Kelly is a certified menopause and life coach specializing in providing personalized coaching for women, their partners, and their families, whether on an individual basis, in small groups, or as part of a corporate wellness package. She's super passionate about empowering women through the often challenging journey of menopause

by combining her professional experience in senior corporate roles with a genuine commitment to women's wellness. She's absolutely dedicated to helping women not just navigate, but thrive during menopause. And she also wants organizations to create inclusive menopause friendly workspaces too. So Kelly, big welcome to the podcast. How are you doing there, lovely?

Kelli Davis (00:52.846)
Thanks very much Sally, thanks for that introduction. very well, thank you.

Sally (00:56.666)
Good, good. So you're dialing in from Dubai, aren't you today? And that's where you live. So what's the menopause narrative like over there and how are you kind of getting involved with the message of menopause in Dubai?

Kelli Davis (01:02.014)
I am, yes.

Kelli Davis (01:15.767)
So it's gradually increasing. There's a few people over here now that are starting to get involved and spread the message around menopause. A lot of us are from the Western hemisphere spreading that message. We're still way behind the likes of the UK, US, Australia, et cetera. But it is starting to gain momentum. And what we do lack over here probably

are more than medical specialists that we have in the UK. Again, we've got three or four prominent individuals. Their diary is always booked up, but that's one thing that we are lacking here. But it is growing, which is great.

Sally (01:49.263)
Yeah.

Sally (02:01.006)
Yeah, yeah, it's really good to get that sort of international conversation going and to help women that don't know that they don't have the resources like we do over here. So it's really good. How did you get into the world of menopause then, Kelly? What prompted you to go into this sphere?

Kelli Davis (02:21.447)
It was really my own personal experience, which I think a lot of us fall into this area because of that. So it was through my own naivety, although I've learned that it's not just me that's been naive. Probably a lot of us have been naive, not understanding what it means. My understanding was, my periods are going to stop. Hurrah! But that's not it at all. And I think probably about three, four years ago, we were traveling and

I just didn't feel like myself. I'm normally very motivated, very chatty, very social, but I wasn't feeling that way. And I just didn't know what was going on. So I just started to do lots of research and talk to people. It's very difficult when you're an expat, especially at that time I was in Asia, I was in Thailand. It's very difficult to get hold of people. So yes, just started listening to podcasts, reading, et cetera. And then I realized I'd probably been in perimenopause for the past sort of five or six years.

And then when you start to think, yeah, maybe that could have been perimenopause and it's all sort of linked together. So then I decided, let's not get angry about it. What can I do to raise awareness? So I started to look at different courses, different certifications, and just really wanted to get the message out there and talk to people about it.

Sally (03:42.936)
Yeah. Yeah, brilliant. What were some of the symptoms that you had, other than the sort not feeling yourself? Was there anything sort of more specific, like hot flushes or anxiety or weight gain?

Kelli Davis (03:58.397)
Yeah, I think hot flushes, I didn't really get luckily enough. Every now and again, maybe, I think, sometimes night sweats. But I think for me, it was lack of motivation. I would burst into tears. Just I remember going out for a coffee with my husband and he just said, you're not looking at yourself. What's the matter? And I just burst into tears and just said, I don't know. I don't know why I'm feeling like this. And I've never suffered through any of my

periods, I've never had PMS or anything like that. So it was very unusual. And I just didn't want to go out at all. And I was just lethargic and tired. and joint pain, I think was another one, actually. And which I soon found out when I started doing my reading, I had two frozen shoulders in the case of probably three years. And that, as we know,

Sally (04:51.162)
Mm.

Kelli Davis (04:53.938)
can be a symptom of perimenopause as well. So yeah, not that some of the typical ones, but yeah, it was just an amalgam of those all together. Yeah.

Sally (04:56.866)
Yeah. Yeah.

Sally (05:02.394)
But nonetheless, definitely.

Yeah, I totally hear you. Those emotional outbursts are so interesting, aren't they? You're like, I really feel like crying and I don't know why. Or sometimes you do know why and you've been triggered, but when you don't know why, it's weird. It just sort of feels like this needs to happen, but I have no idea why. And hopefully you've got a supportive partner or person with you that can just sort of hold space.

for that, you know, just to allow you to kind of get it out of your system. Sometimes I think it's just the body doing what the body needs to do or wants to do. think crying is such a brilliant emotional release anyway, and feels really good, like just to sort of dump it all out of the system.

Kelli Davis (05:48.442)
Yeah, I agree with that. I've got a very supportive partner and he's been amazing and he's learnt with me, I think, as well throughout the menopause piece. But yeah, when I'm not normally emotional, that came as a complete shock for me, for sure.

Sally (05:54.969)
Yeah.

Sally (06:02.778)
Hmm. And what did you do to help yourself? Are there any things like, did you change your diet? Did you go on HRT?

Kelli Davis (06:12.24)
So luckily for me, my husband does all the cooking. So we do eat very, very healthily. But we sort of shifted some of the things that we were doing, perhaps introducing a bit more variety. Because you do tend to get into a habit of having the same things. So making sure we're getting a big variety of vegetables. That was sometimes a challenge in living in Thailand at the time. And yeah.

I think that was it and just pushing myself to get out there to speak to people and build a bit of a community. And yes, I did start to take HRT and I did notice a difference. I would say probably within two to three weeks. I felt a lot, lot better.

Sally (06:57.518)
Yeah, yeah, me too, me too. So you have, in the workplace, when you worked in your place of work in corporate, what did you notice about the menopause landscape when you worked there? Or what are you noticing at the moment?

Kelli Davis (07:16.718)
So I think looking back, there were probably a lot of women who were in high power positions like me, who were that bit older than me, that I thought were maybe being a bit aggressive, challenging, emotional, didn't know what was wrong with them. And because I wasn't aware of what the menopause can do to some people, then I was probably quite dismissive.

And I think a lot of those women try to hide how they felt because they didn't want anyone saying to them, they're not able to perform, they're not doing a good job, she's an emotional wreck. you know, that typical stereotype thing. it's her time of the month or all of that sort of stuff. So I definitely saw that when I was in the corporate space. But I think more so now, because the conversation

has started, people are more accepting, but want to learn and are curious about how they can help people. And that's, that's everybody. So whether you're in the workplace, you don't have to be a woman to come along to understand about menopause, you don't have to be of a certain age, it could be anybody. So I think more and more people are open to that conversation, which is really, really good.

Sally (08:26.426)
Yeah.

Sally (08:46.106)
That's really good to hear. that's brilliant. And I think we've definitely seen so many advancements in our thinking, especially over the last year. We've broadened our horizons. We are thinking in a little bit more of a 360 degree way. I think we are coming out of that sort of binary thinking, good, bad, black, white, that sort of thing.

reaching out to sort of, you know, we have this capacity now, I think, to second position ourselves, to put ourselves in other people's shoes. And I think the internet and social media has made us more sensitive to other people, which is a good thing. You know, it's got to be a good thing, right? So I know it's got downsides. It can be quite traumatizing when we're assimilating all of this information. It could be too much for our brain. But in a sense,

because we're being exposed to so much information, we're almost like trying it on. So people that don't go through menopause are perhaps trying on what it might be like for someone to go through menopause and are therefore not diminishing other people's experience of it. But what you said about, you know, being in a high powered position and feeling like you had to hide or you had to sort of, or people being dismissive.

you that's quite interesting. So what would you like to see change in the corporate landscape do you think?

Kelli Davis (10:22.689)
I think for me, it's really just employers being open. And it doesn't matter what size you are, you could be a, you know, a spa or a hairdresser or whatever that might be, or a massive big corporate. It's really just to have that understanding of what happens during menopause and what employers can do to help. And it doesn't have to be anything major.

Sally (10:27.758)
Yeah.

Kelli Davis (10:51.691)
It could be just little things like having a safe space to go and talk to someone and then managers knowing what to do or having a champion within the workplace. I know I'm working with some organisations where we're setting up like a monthly group, just to come along and chat if you've got any questions you want to raise. And that's open to anybody irrespective of whether they are going through perimenopause or menopause. But it's just having those open conversations.

and almost signposting people of where they can go for help and just being receptive to that because I think a lot of workplaces have got policies around periods, menstrual health, etc. But they haven't continued that for the menopause transition. And they need to start to look to develop that. So it's just really having those open conversations. And I think they are really beneficial. So one of

Sally (11:42.778)
Hmm.

Kelli Davis (11:50.371)
friend of mine actually, she ran a session, it was in UK. And this workplace were very inclusive, they invited everybody to go along and there was a male colleague who'd gone along, was in his probably same age as my son, my son's 28, went along, listened and he went up to her afterwards and said, I really like to thank you for this. It's really helped me understand my mum. She hasn't been the same person.

She's been really struggling and I didn't know what it was. But now I understand that she's been, or potentially she's a perimenopause or she's been going through the menopause and now I can go and speak to her about it. And even making a difference like that, I think that's really amazing.

Sally (12:35.884)
Yeah, it's so good. Like I say, it just helps you to put yourself in someone else's shoes. And actually, since I've been learning more and more and more about the menopause, I look back, you know, my mum was my age now, well, actually, she was younger when she went through the menopause. But I look back and I have, I almost feel sorry for her and just want to like scoop her up and give her a big hug and just sort of say, I'm really sorry, I didn't know. And sort of

in a way wish she'd have felt like she could have been more open. But for whatever reason, didn't, couldn't, you know, and it's so sad for me to think that people are suffering in silence and or that they feel like it's a shameful topic. Because it's really not, know, 51 % of the population will go through menopause. We know that. And so that's a majority on why it's not.

shouting from the rooftops on a daily basis, I don't know if I had my way. So in your estimation, else do you think conversations are so helpful? What can they offer, like speaking about menopause with other people?

Kelli Davis (13:55.199)
It's that understanding, I think, from people being aware of what potentially you're going through, but also understanding that you're not alone, you're not going mad. It's not something that could be a serious illness generally. You're okay. There are other people that are going through this. So I think the more we talk about it, the more we start to have those open conversations.

it really helps. was speaking to a lady through one of the communities I belong to here and she just sort of said, I just feel so much more relaxed now because I know that it's not just me. I'm not scared that there's something really seriously wrong and I now know that I've got a community that I can come and talk to and not feel embarrassed that I...

that, I can't talk to certain individuals about it. It's very different here in the Middle East as well, because although we have a higher percentage of expats in the country here, we also have a lot of people. Obviously, you have the local people here, you have different cultures, different age groups and religions, etc. So for some of those cultures, it is very difficult to talk about these things. So creating that

Sally (15:22.436)
Yeah.

Kelli Davis (15:23.235)
space for people is really, really helpful I think.

Sally (15:28.738)
And how do you navigate that if someone is prohibited from talking about something like that, but they want to for their own sort of medical wellbeing? I guess you have to navigate that quite sensitively.

Kelli Davis (15:43.041)
Yes, absolutely. think one of the things I've been doing is joining there's lots of groups out here, as there are in many countries, but going along and just talking to people and trying to understand what those cultural differences are. And, you know, for example, it may not be appropriate for them to be active, actively

Sally (16:02.468)
Yeah.

Kelli Davis (16:12.213)
seen on, you know, videos or socials or whatever it might be in a group. So how can we then have that conversation on a one to one basis? Or can we bring to bring in a medical professional who is the same culture and religion of that individual or that group of people to understand some of the sensitivities around around those conversations? Because as you know, as well, different cultures

Sally (16:36.171)
Yeah.

Kelli Davis (16:39.487)
go through menopause and experience different symptoms at different ages because of their diets, etc. We're all unique. So it really just is trying to find the best solution for that individual. And it could just be a conversation and just to help support that individual as they go through what they're going through. And it might not just be the menopause, there might be other things there that they might need support with.

Sally (16:55.535)
Yeah.

Sally (17:05.73)
Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree more. And I love what you said about people coming together and understanding that, it's not a serious illness. I'm not going mad. There's a reason for this. I just hadn't thought of it. I thought that menopause was my period stopping. And it's not. There are so many other factors to it. It's not just an estrogen deficiency. There's behavior change.

at the core of it, there's trauma, there's stress. Yes, there are hormonal implications, obviously, but all of those things outside of just our hormones affect our hormones. We forget that our behaviors affect our hormones. What we eat affect our hormones. The conversations that we have affect our hormones. know, our exercise, whether we do or don't, affects our hormones. If we feel safe in the world, that's gonna affect our hormones. So it's not just...

the hormones that are making us feel this way. It's all of the other things that are impacting our hormones too. yeah, and when we get together and just sort of have these chats, it can all start to unravel and come to the surface. So I know that you say that you believe you're never too young to learn about the menopause. Tell me what makes you say that.

Kelli Davis (18:27.235)
So what makes me say that is because, you know, we all have mums, if they're still alive, aunts, sisters, we work, you know, work with people, we come across people in our friendship groups that might be older than us who may be in that transition. But also, some people can go through menopause early. Whether that be from, you know,

Unfortunately, they might have had cancer treatment, they might have some other hormonal challenges, they've had to deal with stress, they might have had to have hysterectomies and all that type of thing. I think I read somewhere that the youngest recorded person ever to experience menopause is something like nine or 10 years old. So we're never too young, because I think to inform ourselves and give ourselves the knowledge of what our

Sally (19:17.21)
Yeah.

Kelli Davis (19:25.411)
cycles our body goes through, you know, from puberty to, you know, perimenopause, menopause, it's, it's then alleviate some of those thoughts that something's wrong. So I think you just need to understand the whole of the cycle to understand that if you are experiencing symptoms, yes, you probably will need to go and get them checked out if you're a lot younger, because there might be other underlying health conditions.

Sally (19:38.328)
Yeah.

Kelli Davis (19:54.189)
But it's just better to be informed because if you've got people around you that may be experiencing those symptoms that they might not know themselves, you can help, but also you can support those individuals as well.

Sally (20:03.023)
Yeah.

Sally (20:07.544)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So I completely agree with you. And I think that, you know, the younger we can get women and everyone really educated about menopause, an easier time we're going to have of it when it finally happens. You can't really have too much education on this stuff. You it's about knowing yourself, knowing your body, knowing what might be happening to the people around you for sure. And also as well, if we educate ourselves on menopause,

think it might make our periods better too. Like if I'd have known what was coming in menopause, I probably would have taken greater, I probably would have had greater awareness about my monthly cycle. I mean, I was quite cycle aware, but not in the early, early days, I think. I would have treated my body with a bit more kindness, I think in the early, early days, had I known the impact that might have later on. So,

Kelli Davis (20:40.438)
Mm.

Sally (21:07.044)
Tell us about coaching. So you're a menopause and a life coach. What do you, so what type of person would want to come and see you and what sort of things do you do in those coaching sessions?

Kelli Davis (21:23.981)
So any type of person really, at the moment I'm coaching women that are in any of the menopause transitions, whether that's perimenopause or postmenopause. And the coaching, I offer coaching in a couple of ways. So on an individual basis and also on a group basis.

Sally (21:40.74)
Mm -hmm.

Kelli Davis (21:53.187)
So really the coaching, it's over a period of eight sessions. And through that, we discuss what your vision is around menopause, your midlife, sort of next phase of life, second spring, whatever you'd like to call it. And I'm all for being very positive around menopause. So it's what, you know, what do want that to look like? But then we dig a bit deeper into

nutrition, looking at the food, what you're eating, making sure you're drinking sufficient water, et cetera, et cetera. We look at boundaries, relationships.

support, movement, try not to say exercise, because I think as soon as you say exercise, people think they've got to go to the gym and slam on the treadmill or lift some weights for a really intense session. And yes, there is aspects of that too, but some sort of movement around that. Decluttering toxins, all that sort of stuff. So I think a lot of people do have this preconceived idea. And I've had a few clients come to me.

Sally (22:39.63)
Hmm.

Kelli Davis (23:08.067)
to say, I'll just go on HRT, it'll fix everything. But unfortunately, you've got this other stuff you need to do around your lifestyle, and like you say, your stress levels and all that. So we work through all of that. It's all individual and it really depends on where the group or the individual go with it, that we'll work on certain areas more deeply and some less. So it's really to give a toolkit

Sally (23:12.547)
Yeah.

Sally (23:31.703)
Mmm.

Kelli Davis (23:36.683)
and some techniques to help people come out of the other side and put in some sometimes quite simple things that will really help manage some of their symptoms and also their mindset around menopause as well.

Sally (23:52.922)
And what sort of results do you get with people when you work with them? Like, how do they say that the coaching has helped?

Kelli Davis (24:01.975)
again, various things is that some people's I knew this stuff, but I just needed some help. And, and have a partner to help me through it. And other people have to say, say that it's completely changed my, the way I think, the way I act in some of with some of the relationships that I have, but also change my preconceptions about

Sally (24:06.617)
Yeah.

Sally (24:23.93)
Hmm.

Sally (24:27.161)
Yeah.

Kelli Davis (24:30.721)
menopause and what it means for me, I realised that it's not the end. And I've got to put up with it. I can actually do something about it and make it a very positive experience. Especially for exactly and I think especially around the group coaching as well. There's been a lot of friendships made and lot of connections made because people resonate with each other. And actually, I enjoy the group coaching a lot because yeah,

Sally (24:35.659)
Mmm.

Sally (24:44.281)
So you're giving women hope.

Sally (25:00.397)
Yeah.

Kelli Davis (25:00.439)
you can just see those connections and those friendships being made. But yeah, it's just very different for everybody. And I think what a lot of people forget is that it's also quite challenging on a woman's mental health, or it can be, because it's the end of your fertility years. And for some people, that's quite triggering. So it's important we don't forget that. there's some of my clients have been in that space as well.

Sally (25:05.773)
Yeah.

Sally (25:21.465)
Yeah.

Kelli Davis (25:29.635)
So trying to unpick and how we can, you know, think about how we can tackle that and how we can change the thinking around that as well. Especially if they've gone through early menopause because of hysterectomy or whatever.

Sally (25:38.093)
Yeah.

Sally (25:41.721)
Yeah.

You're absolutely right. Yeah, it's such a big thing for people who haven't had children or haven't had, maybe they wanted two or three children and they've only had one and they're recognizing that, my gosh, you know, we're coming to the end. I can no longer get pregnant for whatever reason. I'm not getting pregnant or I'm not having a period anymore. And so this is the end.

I know for me, I've had a bit of a journey with that because I've not had children. For me, it was quite a relief, actually. I just remember literally sitting here and I was typing something out or working on my computer and I just suddenly thought to myself, I'm probably not going to end up having kids, am I? well. And then just sort of got back on with what I was doing. And it wasn't this great big moment. It was a very, very small moment.

and quite a relief. wasn't a sadness, it was a relief. think I have had moments of sadness, because obviously grief is so on and off and round the houses. It's not a linear process. But I've definitely had moments of crying and feeling remorse or regret that I haven't had a family. And then...

quickly pick myself up again and like, yeah, but I have all these other amazing things. I have freedom, I have space for creativity and lots of other things that come up, which I'm truly grateful for. And then sometimes I think to myself, maybe I didn't actually want children. Maybe it was the cultural narrative that told me I should have children as a woman. But actually when I look back, think, yeah, perhaps I didn't actually, like the authentic version of me didn't.

Sally (27:37.558)
actually want it. And yeah, you know, I've had coaching and therapy and I think that if it wasn't for those conversations that you're having with your clients and similar to what I've had, I don't know if I would have necessarily come to that sort of illuminated thought in my mind. It was actually Jodie Day who's been on the podcast. don't know if you know Jodie Day. She's, she's really, she's like a therapist philosopher.

Kelli Davis (28:01.325)
No, don't.

Sally (28:06.628)
type woman who type woman, sorry, Jody, who is so eloquent and articulate around the whole childless, childless, child free narrative, childless, not by choice. She's done some real pioneering work about it. Yeah. And like you say, through conversation has really opened the door to, to, to helping women's

Kelli Davis (28:09.091)
Yeah.

Sally (28:33.604)
process around that. So, you I don't think it's to be underestimated the power of these types of conversations, especially as you say in group programs as well. I still haven't got my group program off the ground. I will do one day when the time feels right, but basically, you know, holding space for people who just need a space to process. And I think that's what menopause is actually.

And that's what can help menopause so much is just having that space to talk about, know, what, what was the menopause narrative like in your house? What did you learn about menopause? What are you experiencing yourself right now? What's the pain that you're going through and what's, what's the vision? Cause you mentioned vision. So what do you see in your practice and also what you wanted for yourself? What did you see?

What do you see that women want for their post -menopausal years?

Kelli Davis (29:40.193)
I think it varies. So I remember asking one of my clients, and she said, for nothing to go wrong. I went, that's not a vision. What do you want to feel like? What do you want to do in your next phase of life? And I think a lot of it is, a big one is taking time for themselves is a massive one. So allowing them the space and not feeling

guilty that they're taking time for themselves. Another one is not being afraid to say no. And I found as I've whether it's menopause or whether it's as I've got older, if there's something that someone asked me if I want to do or want to go somewhere, if I really don't want to do it, I don't feel obliged that I've got to say yes, because I don't want to upset that person. It's feeling yourself what you know, what is it right for you.

And another one which can be quite challenging is there are quite a number of my clients who are not necessarily in toxic relationships, but have toxic relationships with some other friends or family members. And it's trying to unpick some of that as well because of the negative impact that's having on my client and how they've had to deal with things in the stress levels.

and not feeling valued. And again, also feeling valued for what they're actually doing and giving and not just being taken for granted. And finding a purpose, I think everyone says, what's my plan? Everyone tells me I need to find a purpose. But making time to allow some space to have that thinking time and creativity about some doing something you enjoy. Doesn't necessarily have to mean be a purpose. But you know,

Sally (31:08.74)
Yeah.

Kelli Davis (31:37.452)
whether it's learning something new or doing some painting and stuff like that. It's just having that space. And I think a lot of my clients are because of the age demographic. They call us the sandwich generation, don't they? Because we've still got, those of us who've got children in high careers and parents. And we very often forget ourselves and worry about everybody else. So it's trying to unpick all of that.

Sally (32:02.201)
Yeah.

Yeah, and really that's done through those sort of artful conversations and a journey of exploration and the questioning. Where do think that comes from and all of that? Taking time for ourselves and not feeling guilty about it, that's interesting. Where do you think some of that guilt comes from?

Kelli Davis (32:15.317)
Yes, for sure.

Kelli Davis (32:30.965)
I think society is a lot, a big part to play in that, you know, with women, the narrative sort of grew, didn't it, around we can have it all, we can do everything. Or you should multitask, you should do this, you should do that. But actually, we can't have it all. We need to think of ourselves and do what's right for us.

Sally (32:42.383)
Yeah.

Kelli Davis (33:00.691)
and I think that's really hard.

you know, especially clients I've had with children, younger children, who perhaps don't work. They feel that they really don't add any value because they don't have a paid job. But they've got young children to look after. They're running the house, they have other things to do, but they don't feel that they should take time out for themselves. Because they're not bringing any income into the money, but they're bringing so much more into the family.

Sally (33:24.676)
Yeah.

Sally (33:33.742)
Yeah.

Kelli Davis (33:33.825)
So that's a lot of the conversations I've had with some of my clients around the guilt piece as well. Yeah, I'm not working and I'm not bringing any money in. I can't afford to go and have it. And self care doesn't have to be a massage. You could just be going out for a nice walk or having time to read a book for 20 minutes or so. They don't feel that they weren't or they're not worthy of taking the time out for that.

Sally (33:40.282)
That's a huge piece. Yeah.

Sally (33:54.959)
Yeah.

Sally (34:02.904)
Yeah, that's actually a huge thing that I had forgotten to consider actually, that that might be the case for some women in that they don't have a regular income. Maybe that income is provided by the partner and they're at home doing absolutely valid work, unpaid work. they're getting paid, well, they're not getting paid, but how do I want to put it?

Kelli Davis (34:23.605)
Mm -hmm.

Sally (34:32.118)
they're just not getting paid for the work that they're doing at home. And so payment in lieu of the work that they are doing should be, I guess, being able to read a book or going out for a walk or just taking a little bit of time for themselves. It's valid work, that housework, you know, and running a family is like running a business. Even me and I don't have children, even running my small little flat, yeah.

Kelli Davis (34:52.447)
It absolutely is. Yeah, it absolutely. Yeah, absolutely is because a lot of the time, and you're, it's that mental overload, because you've got all the things in your head that you know, what you need to do, always remembers the birthdays, always remembers, you know, you need shopping or whatever it might be that car needs servicing, whatever it's generally the woman if they're at home, well, even if they're not at home, thinking about all of that stuff.

Sally (35:20.207)
Yeah.

Kelli Davis (35:20.321)
So it's that mental overload. And even when I found this, when I had my son and went back to work full time in London when he was four months old, it's that guilt that you're not spending time with your child, that how dare you then come home and perhaps at the weekend, go and take some time for yourself. That's another guilt aspect of it as well. Yes, you are working, you are contributing to the family, but you've not seen

Sally (35:44.356)
Mmm.

Kelli Davis (35:49.439)
your child through the whole week. you you couldn't really frown upon if you think that you want to take some time out for yourself as well.

Sally (35:58.929)
But if you don't look after you and you're not functioning on a high level then how can you look after anyone else?

Kelli Davis (36:08.361)
Absolutely. And it's that old thing, isn't it? I always say to my clients, you know, if you're on an airplane and the oxygen comes down, they always say, don't they fit your mask before you fit the mask of anyone else? Because if you're not functioning, and you don't take note of all those little signals that's telling you to take care of yourself, and even in some occasions, partners or friends are saying to that person, you need to take some time out, but they're, they don't do that.

because they feel they shouldn't, it's like you say, if you're not well, how can you then provide and look after other people?

Sally (36:40.783)
Yeah.

Sally (36:46.392)
Yeah, how can you be there for others? So how do you get your clients to see that they, or how do you motivate your clients? Because it's a hard thing, isn't it? It's almost like a behavior change. It's something that they've got to do that's unfamiliar, that might feel really difficult, that there might be some resistance to. How do you actually get them over the border?

Kelli Davis (36:47.881)
Yeah, absolutely.

Kelli Davis (37:12.001)
Sometimes I don't, truthfully, because it is really hard. But it's really getting them to think about what life might look like if they started to do this and how they might feel if they started to do this. And it could be one aspect, I don't get time to do any movement or throughout the day.

Sally (37:13.786)
Right, yeah.

Sally (37:28.1)
Yeah.

Kelli Davis (37:41.281)
So, you know, even if a win is 10 minutes of standing up and doing 10 squats, or just going for a walk for 10 minutes, or if you're at work, having a walking meeting rather than sitting down for a coffee, little things like that. So I try to encourage little steps, little baby steps and try to build small routines.

in existing routines that we can sort of we can layer up. So little by little, and it's not trying to fix everything all at the same time, because that in itself can be a challenge. And I think sometimes if we try and load ourselves up too much with all these changes, then if we're not achieving them, we feel even more stressed and feel like a failure. So it's just trying small little things to try and get

Sally (38:14.233)
Yeah.

Sally (38:36.367)
Yeah.

Kelli Davis (38:39.189)
people to change their behaviours.

Sally (38:42.54)
over the longer term.

Kelli Davis (38:43.388)
over the longer term.

Sally (38:45.688)
Yeah, which I guess is why longer term coaching programs are more useful than just kind of like one session, unless you're a highly motivated person and you just feel like, do you know what? just need one session to get me back on the wagon again. Once I'm on the wagon, I know what I'm doing. I just need that one session to feel heard, to just get some inspiration, to get a kick up the backside, get a little bit of accountability.

then I can do that. And that's what I offer in my medical solution sessions. sometimes I'm not, and that won't suit every type of person. So the type of person that perhaps gets overwhelmed easily or hasn't ever had a program that they've stuck to for a very long time, or that has like a lot of trauma in their background and that perhaps needs this piecemeal process and a little bit more accountability and a little bit more.

therapy basically, because that's essentially what we're doing, and those longer term coaching sessions will be much more useful.

Kelli Davis (39:49.409)
Yeah, absolutely. I think my coaching, the individual coaching is I do over 12 weeks, but there are eight sessions because I realized that sometimes life gets in the way and some people might need a couple of week break in between sessions or, you know, a closer together. And then after that initial coaching period, then I always have a follow up sort of a month after and then there's the option to have additional sessions. And then as part of the group coaching,

there's again, a separate add on where you can also have one to ones as part of that group coaching, because as you say, people sometimes want some extra support and that extra accountability. So I think by having the vision at the beginning, and having that sort of vision as to what you want to feel like, where you want to go, is always a good thing and having that sort of action plan to refer back to. So that's really useful. And here I have

Sally (40:43.949)
Hmm.

Kelli Davis (40:48.565)
different cafes and events that are free, people can just come along and talk to. And I'm looking to do that virtually as well, because I'm aware that some of my clients are in different places. And I'm soon to be going to Riyadh in Saudi Arabia as well. So it's important to catch people. And some people don't always want the face to face and it's easier for them to do it via Zoom as well. So there's so many, like you said earlier, there are so many

Sally (41:14.905)
Yeah.

Kelli Davis (41:18.603)
different approaches. We're all unique in our menopause journeys. We're all unique as coaches and therapists. And I think the more of us out there, the better because, you know, we're all here to help, but not everyone is going to gel with everybody. So there's a person out there for everybody. I feel that's really important. And I feel that, you know, we shouldn't be in competition with each other. should, we should be supporting each other and helping, helping everybody.

Sally (41:30.841)
Yeah.

Sally (41:37.752)
Yeah, that's right.

Sally (41:46.19)
Yeah, yeah, I think so too. I think you're right. And like you say, there are now becoming a lot more menopause coaches and it's about who you resonate with, who you gel with, who you like. You like their language, like their tone of voice. You like their demeanor. You like the way they put things across. Yeah, absolutely. So what are some of the positives that you've experienced during your menopause transition and

Kelli Davis (42:00.33)
Absolutely.

Sally (42:16.078)
what you hear about in your groups. So obviously it's a bumpy road and it can be tricky and it can be difficult, but I know I've experienced some positives. What have been yours and what have you seen?

Kelli Davis (42:31.413)
I think so for me on a personal basis, I feel that I feel now a lot more energized. I feel that I've got this amazing phase in front of me that I can do what I want to do to help other people. And for me, that's amazing. But also I think I know who I am more now than I was before. I'm probably a bit of a people pleaser and I would chuck myself in there and get stuff done.

But I think menopause and going through the challenges and learning about menopause and how the body works and being more self aware of myself has really, really helped personally. And coming from some of my clients and some of the people that I talk to, it's being informed and having that sense of community and knowing that

Sally (43:16.867)
Yeah.

Kelli Davis (43:31.015)
It's not, you know, the end of life as we know it. It's something that happens to all of us. And the fact that they've had the opportunity to understand what it's all about, and to have some guidance and coaching around that to help themselves learn new things. So that's really interesting for people learning new things, it keeps your brain going. And

Sally (43:36.623)
Yeah.

Kelli Davis (44:00.941)
getting into that flow state where you're not thinking about anybody else. I think that's been very important. And even for some of my clients, they are very busy, but even taking the time out to have an hour with me once a week is self -care in itself, just to talk and be listened to and to have that person there that's purely for them and understands what they're going through. think that's a big, part of the feedback that I get.

Sally (44:15.098)
Mm.

Sally (44:19.876)
Yeah.

Kelli Davis (44:30.325)
is just having that time with somebody.

Sally (44:30.616)
Yeah, for them to work it all out themselves actually and all you're doing is just kind of holding a mirror up for them to see what it is that they're working on. Yeah, yes. Well thank you so much Kelly and where are you most active on social media?

Kelli Davis (44:35.563)
Yeah.

Kelli Davis (44:42.539)
Yeah, for sure. Absolutely.

Kelli Davis (44:52.909)
do that social media. I say Instagram, I say I'm most active on social media, do do a bit on them. I've met Instagram with links to my Facebook. And I do a little bit on LinkedIn. So that could be the three platforms, I would say.

Sally (44:54.747)
Okay.

Sally (45:10.618)
And if people, I'll put all of your links in the show notes, but if people want to get a hold of you, your, what's your website?

Kelli Davis (45:18.727)
It's Tender Mint .com. So tender is spelt T -E -N -D -R -I -N -T .com. And the reason for that name was tender being self care, time for yourself, and mint is around fresh perspective and new beginnings. So Tender Mint is the name.

Sally (45:28.376)
Lovely.

Sally (45:38.818)
Love it. I love that. That's brilliant. That's so creative. And your website is lovely. So do go and check it out.

Kelli Davis (45:42.955)
Thank you.

Kelli Davis (45:47.873)
Thank you very much.

Sally (45:49.86)
You're welcome. Thank you very much.

Kelli Davis (45:52.171)
Thanks, Allie.

Sally (45:54.298)
We stopped that there.