166 The Impact of Chronic Stress and Trauma on Menopause with Catherine Harland

Join me and Catherine Harland, a menopause coach, as we dive into her personal journey of navigating menopause and the impact of chronic stress and trauma on menopausal symptoms. She chats about her corporate life and how menopause affected her career. She also delves into the role of trauma and the dysregulated nervous system in exacerbating menopausal symptoms and how we cannot avoid addressing this area of our own lives if we want to improve our menopausal experience. We also chat about the impact of processed food and the challenges faced by women in prioritizing their own needs. We talk about the ongoing nature of the healing journey itself and we discuss our favorite tools for regulating the nervous system which will hopefully inspire other women needing to feel that inner calm. 

If you’re ready to take your menopause knowledge to the next level, do come and join us.

Catherine’s Links:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/menopausementor_/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MenopauseMentor

X (formerly Twitter): https://x.com/meno_mentor

Website: https://www.menopausementor.uk/

Sally's Links:

[Free] Relaxation Hypnosis Recording:  https://bit.ly/relaxationwithsally

How to Create Phenomenal Self Esteem [£47]:  https://www.sallygarozzo.com/selfesteem

Menopause Wellbeing Practitioner [£127] https://www.sallygarozzo.com/meno

Cold Water Therapy Practitioner [£127] https://www.sallygarozzo.com/cold

Transformational 30 Day Rewire (Includes RTT) [£447]: https://www.sallygarozzo.com/rapid-transformational-therapist

Transformational Trauma Informed Coaching [From £197]:  https://www.sallygarozzo.com/transformational-coaching 

Instagram:  https://www.instagram.com/sallygarozzomindmentor

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sallygarozzo/

Send me a voice clip via What’s App - https://wa.me/message/FTARBMO7CRLEL1 

Transcript

Sally (00:01.159)
So my guest today is Katherine Harland and after 30 years in the corporate world at board level, combined with 14 years of challenging menopausal symptoms, Katherine trained to become a menopause coach and workplace training provider in the subject of menopause. So what makes Katherine different, which is why we connected, is because she is really passionate about educating women around the impact of chronic stress and trauma.

and a dysregulated nervous system, which leads to a multitude of symptoms regularly mistaken for menopausal symptoms. So there's so much to say about this subject and Catherine, welcome to the podcast. How are you doing? Lovely.

Catherine Harand (00:48.334)
Hello, Sally, thank you for having me. Do you know what? I'm doing really well. I'm delighted to say.

Sally (00:52.455)
Good. brilliant. And we met through your daughter, didn't we? Or your daughter, Steph, came on the podcast. And so it's lovely to have you, mother, here as well. And she spoke so eloquently about trauma and the nervous system and all of that. And you're just kind of carrying that through, that thread through. So I think also we've been on a similar journey.

Catherine Harand (01:01.102)
Good.

Sally (01:21.031)
I, at first, you know, for me, it was all about, well, first it was all about the mind, then it was all about menopause and the hormones, and now it's all about the nervous system and trauma and dysregulation and how actually a lot of that was making my menopausal symptoms worse. So what I'd love to do, Catherine, is first of all, tell me about your corporate life, what that was like, and how menopause

affected your corporate life and then how trauma became part of that narrative for you too later on.

Catherine Harand (01:58.382)
Yes, thank you, Sally. So I've been self -employed most of my life. And the last sort of 14 years before I retrained, I was obviously in the corporate world. I was a self -employed PR looking after big national brands such as Specsavers and Tintes & Cumbria, national hotel brands, et cetera. Loved PR, still do love PR, but obviously I don't work in that field anymore.

it was starting to just become symptoms were becoming a bit more challenging. So I'd like to jump in here and say from 18, I have suffered or experienced like the word experience rather than suffered now. We have power as we know, I experienced panic attack and anxiety from 18 on and off, but it was very debilitating at times. So I've navigated that a lot in my life.

Sally (02:39.335)
Ciao.

Thank you.

Catherine Harand (02:55.534)
you know, both personally and professionally. But like I said, the PR side, you know, drive here, there and everywhere, having meetings. It started where, you know, I was afraid to drive too far and meetings, I've always loved meetings. I get energized from meeting people and brainstorming ideas and doing events, you know, launching hotel openings, et cetera. So, and the hot flushes, that was the, I think one of the first things which I think a lot of women experience.

So I'd do a hotel event and literally I looked drenched from embarrassing, you know, my hair would look like I'd just walked off a beach at 35 degrees. I'm like, phew. But again, I felt all right to myself, so I just had to kind of park it and get on with it. And like I regularly say in my social media posts, you know, if we ignore the whispers, then the screams come along. I didn't know what to do at this stage. You know, yes, we know hot flushes is a, you know, a thing.

Sally (03:46.023)
Mmm.

Catherine Harand (03:52.718)
during menopause, it's a well -known fact, the change, you know, that we've always known from previous generations. We just thought we had to sort of tolerate them. So I started joining Facebook groups, menopause Facebook groups. And that was the first time I went to the doctors was I was 42 and I'm now 54. And they, it was a lady doctor, but obviously, you know, we didn't talk about menopause very much even 12 years ago. And I had...

general blood tests, again, it was borderline. We now know blood tests are very, very much a waste of time. You know, you could have three blood tests in that day and they would fluctuate massively. So again, I just, I didn't have a clue about all of this stuff then. I just went on with life as we did. It rattled on, rattled on during the course of, you know, my PR career. And at 48, I then went to the doctors and I said, I'm going to go on HRT.

Again, not knowing anything about what we're going to be talking about in the future, sort of with trauma, et cetera. And of course doctors don't ask that and they're not trained in it. I'm not here to, you know, doctor bash at all. You know, they go to medical school and they give them the training they're given. And I remember sitting there and I looked into it very much at this stage and I, he had to spell, estrogel. He hadn't even heard of it. You know, I would have been prescribed the old style HRT, you know, the oral form.

but I'd done a lot of research long before my training. And when I got home, I'd realized he'd given me the wrong dose of progesterone to oestrogel, but that's only because of my knowledge from a Facebook group. So imagine if I, you know, it's been a wild and wonderful journey. So anyway, like I say, life rattle dawn, rattle dawn. And I'm going to be very honest here. You know, I was the typical drinker at a weekend, alcohol binge drinker.

Sally (05:23.303)
wow.

Catherine Harand (05:42.67)
You know, it was like the done thing. It's the culture site. it's Friday. There was girls get together, bottomless Prosecco, you know? So of course we know that that absolutely hampers wellbeing. You know, we don't metabolize alcohol like we used two years ago. In fact, I've never metabolized it well. But obviously as we get older and intervent a pause, the body's going, hang on a minute, you know, please support me in this. So again, the whispers kept coming. The whispers were getting louder and louder and louder.

Sally (05:50.023)
Mm.

Catherine Harand (06:12.846)
And then I turned 50 and I had a lovely party and then we went into lockdown. That was in January, we went into lockdown in the March. So that was sort of four and a half years ago -ish. And lockdown coped admirably. Menopause symptoms seemed to be halted. And that's caused the stress of, we had stress of many things. You know, the world was a strange place. I was living on my own, like, what's going on? But it's sort of...

it helped stop us a lot in our tracks and reevaluate some things. But we didn't, I didn't realize that at the time. I just thought, this is nice. The world's kind of come to a stop and it's not as frantic and we can kind of catch our breath. So life went on and what I will say is during this time, my children's father, my ex -husband, who I'm a couple still friends, he'd had a very lengthy health journey.

and he was very poorly and he ended up, he had died the December before we went into lockdown. So again, and that had my father's death two years previously and I'd lost my best friend to a brain tumor in between that time as well. I took my brother in to nurse him. He'd had a heart attack two days before my dad died out of the blue.

and my sister developed breast cancer. So obviously there was a lot going on. This is before lockdown. But again, I was really strong. I genuinely, I didn't have an ounce of anxiety. I was thinking, wow, look at me coping with all this, you know, going through, you know, my friend's brain tumor journey operations, picking her up from radiotherapy, all the stuff that people do to help family and friends. And looking back, I didn't put my own oxygen mask on.

I didn't have a clue then. You know, my mum was very much that sort of person. And I just replicated that, a group being a people pleaser, as well as wanting to be a kind, helpful person. So anyway, here we are in lockdown, life settled down. A year later, I moved house. And literally that's when everything started to crumble. And I say crumble, I'm on about, I think of a bulldozer knocking a big tower block down. And I thought...

Catherine Harand (08:33.23)
I was rocked to the core. I didn't have a clue what was going on. And this is when I retrained as a menopause educator because I thought, and again, looking back, I should have looked after my own health rather than sort of go, right, this is it, I'm parking my PR career. You know, I didn't put my own oxygen mask on. I'm like, this terrible menopause. I wanted to understand from my own personal point of view, but also to create a new career to help women because I know how debilitating it was. At this stage again, I had...

No idea about grief, about trauma and nervous system dysregulation. I had no idea. And my daughter, as we mentioned, I regularly say, I feel like I've given birth to the one that's healed me. Of course I've done my own healing work and I'm still a work in progress like we all are. But I do feel she was quietly in the background, signposting me. Never preach, she never like, mom, you need to do this or, you know, never shouty.

Because what I do know with this sort of journey, you've got to be in the right head space to understand it. So when she said to me about four years ago, when we realize you've got childhood trauma, and I look at her, what are you on about? You know, it's like, you know, my mum and dad were always together. Yes, my dad had a bad temper, but you know, what parent of that generation didn't, you know? And it just, I couldn't understand it. It's...

was far removed from my understanding. To me, trauma was about being in the midst of 9 -11 or being from a war -torn country or whatever, serious car accident, whatever. And so again, that was just her subtly dropping things in, but I had to come to my own understanding. And as time progressed, again, there was whispers. Well, the bulldozer had come. My body had screamed, enough, time to listen. But I didn't have a clue, so I got up, New Year's Day.

Sally (10:22.375)
Yeah.

Catherine Harand (10:29.198)
That would have been two and a half years ago. So January, 2021. My maths isn't very good. Much better with all my maths. And I remember, again, not having a clue about trauma and going, something has to change here. I'd had terrible vertigo. My IBS that had rattled on for, since I was late 20s, had become severe, sort of sometimes ending up in fecal incontinence. Very occasionally enough to be like, you have that.

Sally (10:34.983)
Hehehe

you

Catherine Harand (10:58.254)
If you're driving and you're stressed and you know you need the toilet and you can't make it, you've got mind connection, the vagus nerve, it's fight of flight. Your body thinks that saber -toothed tiger is chasing you and all it wants to do is do, get rid, it's digesting shuts down and therefore empty the bowels. I had no idea about any of this. So again, the confidence of like, I just felt like in a game of whack -a -mole, like what's coming next?

my hypervigilant state was down right up, you know, into survival mode. And that survival mode has more or less lasted for three years. And what we now know is, don't get me wrong, you know, there's been times when it's been down down, of course it has. But the last three years, when I look back, I feel like I've lived in this hypervigilant state. When you live in survival mode, for many reasons, many reasons, many cogs to the wheel, your cortisol is

highly elevated and that causes severe disruption in the metabolism in the body. The inflammation, it creates the cortisol. You know, the body needs cholesterol and it creates more cholesterol because the cholesterol is produced to try and heal the inflammation and it's a vicious circle. There's so many things. So I got up that New Year's Day and I thought something's got to change.

Sally (12:16.839)
Mmm.

Catherine Harand (12:23.726)
I ordered food intolerance tests, I ordered gut tests, SIBO tests, stool tests. I didn't have a clue, I was stabbing in the dark. I just knew my body was telling me something. But even with my daughter's knowledge, who was pretty new to the trauma world itself then, and practicing as a coach, I was thinking, no, this is a body thing. Look at what my body's doing. I've got vertigo, my guts, blah, blah. To me, those were physical things.

And that's how we are brought up. If you've got a physical ailment or a physical sign, what do we do? We go to the GP, don't we? And the GP, obviously at this stage, didn't have a clue how to help. They signpost me to the FODMAP diet. And I'm sure, you know, it helps some people because we're all unique as well. I do want to stress that we are all unique. My journey is just my journey.

Sally (13:08.967)
Yeah.

Sally (13:19.879)
Yeah.

Catherine Harand (13:20.046)
And I know that the many, the numerous rabbit holes I've been down, which I'll explain, and the dead ends has led me to everything I understand now. I feel like I've done a master's degree for three years, but I've got no certificate to show for it. But I know my journey will help other people, and that's what I'm passionate about. So basically, I spent that first year and into the next year working with nutritionists. I wasn't really working. I was retraining as this menopause coach.

focusing on that whilst trying to sort my own body out with nutritionists ordering, I must have spent thousands on supplements. And I am a great believer in supplements, Sally, I still am. But I do know it's like you're throwing fuel on the fire. If you don't get to the root cause of what is going on in your body, the supplements are a waste of money. So yes, vitamin Bs are so necessary when we have nervous system dysregulation.

Sally (14:01.223)
Mm -hmm.

Sally (14:11.943)
Yeah.

Catherine Harand (14:18.094)
because it uses up a lot of vitamin B and magnesium and all the nutrients and minerals that we need. But if you're just taking the recommended dose and you're not addressing trauma, because we don't know these things, it's literally scratching the surface. You might as well not use them. But again, on my journey with nutritionists, et cetera, and again, no one mentioned trauma because...

Unless you're in this fear and you have this great understanding, and this is no one's fault, I'm not blaming any nutritionist I work with. You know, I was having calls with good specialists in Australia on Zoom. I was like, you know, desperate to be fixed. And the desperation came from, you know, I'm a single person, you know, I need to earn, I need to work and I need to earn. And that fight or flight, that was just elevating my nervous system.

You've got to be well, you've got to work. And my poor nervous system was just in literally a rabbit in headlights. It was terrible. And that was causing again, dialing it up, dialing it up further, the cortisol, the inflammation, you know, and you get the vertigo, you get the dizziness, you get the gut, you know, elimination diets, you know, and that became quite obsessive. That's another dangerous thing. That's another topic for another podcast. That can become quite dangerous.

Sally (15:20.551)
Yeah.

Catherine Harand (15:42.99)
And I'll not name the names, but there's some very high profile people out there, for SIBO and histamine intolerance, because again, I went through, bought loads of books on, you can see them behind, and autoimmune, adrenal fatigue, heath histamine, you name it, I've been down everywhere, long COVID.

Sally (15:55.847)
Hehehe.

Sally (16:01.415)
Well, yeah, at the root of all of it really is, is trauma. And, I was listening to a podcast about histamine intolerance and they were basically saying it's, it's a symptom of nervous system dysregulation. And I, and I wonder as well if menopause symptom severity is actually like high, high, but bad menopausal symptom is a result really of nervous system dysregulation. Not that that's throwing the hormones out.

that's making the hormones, you know, too much cortisol, too much fight flight mode, and then no cortisol, and you're in freeze mode and you're in burnout and that causes a lot of fear because the kidney energy is really depleted. So there's so much of it, there's so much of it that is caused by nervous system dysregulation that's not actually really anything to do with

the natural menopausal experience. It's just maybe menopause is being accelerated by this nervous system, dysregulation and not really dealing with grief, with the transition, with the trauma that happened in our childhood. And something that you brought up was this idea of big T and little T. So big T being the big traumas, you know, living in a war zone, experiencing.

I don't know, a car accident or something like that versus the little traumas which so many of my clients, I'll be having a consultation with them and I'll be like, so tell me about your childhood. I had a wonderful childhood. It was really wonderful. I'm like, okay, we need to dig deeper here because actually your interpretation of a wonderful childhood is going on holiday. We went on holiday every year. We lived in a really nice house. I had a really good education and my mum and dad stayed with each other.

and I got on quite well with my siblings. It's like, yeah, okay, on the surface, that seems really good. Did you feel seen? Did you feel heard? Did you feel understood? Did you feel important? Were your parents emotionally available to you? What were their expectations like? Did they have high expectations? Were you just left to get on with it? Did you, I'm just trying to think, there's so many.

Catherine Harand (18:21.454)
Thanks.

Sally (18:24.071)
But there's so many of these things are quite traumatizing when you as a child don't have the inner resources to deal with difficult feelings or just anything really. I mean, there's stuff coming out in my therapy sessions with my therapist today that I'm like, my God, that seemed so benign, but actually it was such a big thing for my little nervous system that didn't actually have any kind of

coping strategies and she shut down as a result of dad maybe talking over her or mum having this sort of like stress over money. And the environment that we grew up in when we're little really denotes the coping strategies that we're going to use as we get older. And the one for women, a lot of the time is people pleasing and yeah.

And you find hyper -rationalizing as well. So you go up into the head and you ignore the body. And that's when, like you say, the whispers turn into screams. And I think that is the gift of menopause, actually. It's a real gift in that that's when the body starts screaming at us. So thank you for bringing all of that up.

Catherine Harand (19:41.134)
No, absolutely. Thank you for listening. And I think let's throw in if you're a highly sensitive person, which I only discovered I was last year. I knew I was sensitive, more sensitive than my siblings. I'm one of four. And I think how can they do X, Y and Z? And why do I react differently? So I think as well, there's many cogs to the wheel. I love using that phrase, that's for wellbeing as well as detrimental stuff. But I am a highly sensitive person.

Sally (20:07.143)
Hmm.

Catherine Harand (20:09.326)
I had two elder siblings and I watched my dad, you know, I wouldn't say beat them up, but you know, he did smack them and, you know, and I was so traumatized, I just froze. And that is a six year old and probably, you know, from the womb, you know, again, that's another story for another day. But even from the womb, my experience from the womb compared to my older two, because it's 10 years and seven years between me and my older brother and sister. So again, my experience is a...

as a child and then we had the younger one who was six years younger, is completely different to, you know, I used to think, well, hang on, you've got the same parents, you've got the same genes, how can you be so different? But this is why, because I experienced from the womb, you know, whether you're born the first one without siblings, the second one with a sibling and so on, that all makes a difference to the person you'll be becoming. And I watched the other two, like I say, had a very difficult time in various ways. And that's when...

I didn't realise at the time, but my little inner Catherine decided, well, her coping mechanism was to become a people pleaser. Keep the peace, keep the peace, be the good. And my sister used to joke, you're the goody two shoes. And I had no idea until literally probably in the last six months, this was why. And it wasn't a conscious decision as a child, I'm going to be good to not get told off. It was just that inner child, I don't know how else to cope and not being seen.

Sally (21:37.959)
Yeah.

Catherine Harand (21:38.702)
emotional neglect. My mum was a huge workaholic. My dad was in and out of psychiatric hospitals, he was bipolar and I do really love the work that Dr. Russell Kennedy does because he's a doctor and a very well renowned doctor and psychologist or whatever he is in the field and he had a bipolar father too. So I'm digressing but this has led to why my body reacted terribly and my mind and body in menopause.

And let's also throw in that, you know, the adrenal glands, they take over producing estrogen once out of restock. Now, obviously not to the same level, not so we're fertile. Of course, we couldn't have babies because the adrenals produce some estrogen, but they will always prioritize their main hormone, which is cortisol. So if we're living in a high state of fight or flight, nervous system dysregulation, we're not going to have any estrogen produced.

Sally (22:29.319)
Yeah.

Sally (22:37.575)
Yeah.

Catherine Harand (22:37.902)
So hence, there you go, there's a scientific fact of why menopause symptoms are worse if we have a dysregulated nervous system. We don't have any to help balance us out.

Sally (22:47.175)
Yeah.

to buffer it all, yeah. And, you know, having, coming back to what you're saying about having a bipolar father, I would imagine that was quite chaotic for you and not really being able to understand the emotional dynamic or not knowing what's coming next. And that is sort of like living in trepidation, treading on eggshells. So no wonder you created this coping strategy of people pleasing.

Because it meets a need, doesn't it, when you're little? Because you need your parents' approval, you need there to be a united front, you need there to be grounding and stability. So you just play this role that meets a need within you. But as you get older, that role stops working for you. But yet we carry on because we're unconscious of it, we're unaware of it. And so I wonder, now if anyone's listening to this and they maybe have these people pleasing coping strategies, how you can maybe tune into

this feeling of, well, is that working for me? Or this question, how is that not working for me now? And how can I change that? I think that's such a useful reflection to ask ourselves is, why is that not working anymore? And what can I do to change it?

Catherine Harand (24:11.694)
Well, absolutely right, Sally. I mean, that's a great point. And looking back in hindsight, no one ever said that to me. I didn't learn that. I've had CBT and hypnotherapy, et cetera, over the years. I've always tried to address my anxiety and IBS. Yes, not understanding. It has a root cause. And all of those practitioners never mentioned this, but I think the last 10 years, as we know,

Sally (24:26.567)
Right, as a symptom.

Catherine Harand (24:37.998)
We're talking more about never system regulation and the people pleasing and why this occurs, why we adopt this strategy, this coping mechanism. And this is what I'd love to get out. All of the things we're talking about today is about being proactive. It's what can we do to help women who haven't reached perimenopause to let's be proactive rather than reactive. Don't let it get to the screams. Knowledge is power.

Don't become obsessive about it, but I wish I'd known what I know now in my 30s. The thing is, when we're in our 30s and we're flying and things feel fine, we're having great times and, you know, hopefully in your 30s, but if someone had said all of this, how would I have addressed it? Thinking, well, I'm all right, I'm well. That's the key. How do we get women to understand, to do so deep healing when they feel well? I think that's the...

Sally (25:34.727)
I think it's a real individual journey actually, because I don't think you can necessarily do that work on yourself unless there is something that's knocking on your door. But I think the education piece comes in and teaching people and training people to listen to those whispers, don't let them get to screams. So if you're having migraines, if you're having like...

gut issues, if your relationships aren't going well, if you're on an emotional roller coaster, like look at how you are pre -menstrally. Look at what is going on for you pre -menstrally and during your period. And those are your signals. Those are your unconscious. Like I really believe that the pre -menstrual period is your unconscious coming to the surface. So those are your whispers that are getting a little bit louder.

And you've got, you know, 12 of those a year, if you're having a regular cycle, 12 opportunities per year to really tune into yourself and to really listen to what your body wants. Cause there's like the internal world and then there's the external world. And we're so focused on the external world, aren't we? Like expectations and where we should be by 30 and our career and what kind of a relationship we should have. And I call it like the shopping mall syndrome where

you're just so sidetracked by all the glitzy and glittery things outside of yourself. But actually, it's very, very distracting from what's going on inside. So in order to really go within and really get those messages, we have to quieten down, we have to slow down. But of course, in our 30s, we don't want to slow down, like we have all this energy. But our periods are usually a time when we are bleeding.

Well, we do want to slow down. The body does make us slow down a little bit and to dream and to envision and to just like go within and really listen. So if we do take some time out, maybe come off Netflix a little bit and maybe actually really listen and build a relationship with the body, I think that we can start to pave the way to have a better time of it at menopause so that when menopause does happen, the shit doesn't hit the fan as much as, you know, it has done for like our generation.

Sally (27:51.559)
Like you say, that bulldozer coming along.

Catherine Harand (27:54.99)
let's face it, you know, I mean, our generation, we've had lots of processed food and, you know, previous generations, I'm not saying they've had it easier, they genuinely haven't. I mean, they had war, they had their own trauma, et cetera. But, you know, their diet was more organic. It was more, you know, my grandmother will have gone to the local butchers and the meat will have been from within five miles and, you know, they'll have got a block of butter, you know, cut off at the store, you know, et cetera, et cetera. So.

You know, nowadays, the supermarkets are full of processed food. That's something else I'm really passionate about. Because again, what is that doing over time? Again, I'm going to use the term lots of cogs to the wheel. All the processed food, the toxins we encounter, the trauma, so many things. And again, going back to the 30s, you know, a lot of women in their 30s have got young kids. You know, I had my kids were sort of 10 and 12 when I was 35, for example. So who has time to really even tune into their own needs then?

That's the other dynamic as women. And we're always, you know, as mothers, we have to put the children first. And I'm a great believer in putting our own oxygen masks on, more so now, obviously, minor adults, but, you know, how do you do that when your kids are young and you're doing the school run and you're frantic and you, you know, you're just juggling all so much. And then you get a wave of, you know, anxiety or got to see is you haven't got time to stop your tracks. But I do think now knowledge is power.

Sally (28:54.119)
Yeah.

Sally (28:58.823)
course.

Catherine Harand (29:22.766)
And again, if I'd known what I knew then, when I was 39, I was diagnosed with burnout. So again, I was working frantically and at the time I was a single mum, although the dad was wonderful and you know, but we weren't obviously together in separate households. But I literally got up one day to drive my son to school, which I've done the journey numerous times over numerous years. And I felt I couldn't even drive. I was like, what's this? Out of the blue, what's, but again.

There'll have been numerous whispers, which I didn't know to listen to. And I did manage to drive him to school. This was what, so 15 years ago now. I did manage to drive him to school. It was about, you know, it was about a 13 mile round trip there and back. So, you know, not just sort of down the road. And I rang my hypnotherapist at the time who had been seen for IBS. And she said, come straight down. And she said, burn out. And went to the doctors and they put me on antidepressants.

because that's what GPs do. And I felt like I was going absolutely insane. I felt I'm losing my mind. And the weight that I've carried, the ball and chain for most of my life, but not now as of this year, I was terrified of ending up like my dad, going into a geometric unit because he'd been in and out with bipolar and sectioned and touch wood, I've never had that. And now I don't have the fear anymore.

Sally (30:37.831)
Right.

Catherine Harand (30:48.398)
because I had anxiety and panic disorder and generalized anxiety, I mean, you know, the umbrella term for all of these, but no one said this is due to having a dysregulated nervous system from childhood. Now I know that Sally, it's only this year that I've learned this, even with all my daughter's knowledge and signposting, again, it was like, no, it's a physical thing, it's a good thing, it's whatever, because I didn't have the understanding, but it's becoming.

Sally (31:01.735)
Yeah. Yeah.

Sally (31:16.551)
Hmm.

Catherine Harand (31:18.03)
The tide is slowly turning with people like you and others in the space. We're helping others sort of understand this, the little T's and how we get to this state. So again, knowing what I know now about anxiety, Dr. Russell Kennedy talks about this being an alarm system in the body and it's like a trip switch that's gone off and it's an energy. It's like a smoke alarm. So if a smoke alarm goes off in the house,

and you check, there's nothing burning and there's no pan on the stove and everything. That's just a false alarm, isn't it? And this is what anxiety is to a degree. And it's trying to make us aware there's something to address. I'm imbalanced. I need your help. The body has a miraculous way of communicating with us. But again, growing up, no one tells us this. You know, we're told, you've got a headache, pop of painkiller or whatever. No one thinks, lean into.

Sally (32:01.383)
Yeah.

Sally (32:09.255)
Yeah.

Catherine Harand (32:14.222)
your body really trying to communicate. So when I've done workshops this is the sort of information I try to give to attendees. You know, are you educated? Have you drank too much at the weekend? Are you stressed? You know, really get to know your own body.

Sally (32:22.215)
Hmm.

Sally (32:30.503)
Exactly, it's know thyself, isn't it? And yeah, really like understanding what triggers it. And I think anxiety is so interesting. I've definitely had a relationship with anxiety. It was my first menopausal symptom. And like you say, is that false alarm? And we're looking for danger with anxiety. We're constantly like scanning the horizon for danger because we tuned into it. Anxiety, it's a vicious circle. Anxiety makes us tune into danger.

the more danger we tune into, the more anxiety we have. So we're in this sort of danger loop and the reticular activating system just really hones in on people's facial expressions and things that we're seeing out in the world or maybe the news. And it can really get quite bad if you don't break that cycle. You have to stop it. You have to go in and break that cycle and do something good for yourself. I really do think anxiety is a call for

self -care actually and to just turn off all of those distractions that are making you tune into danger. So, and also like you were saying earlier, something I wanted to tap into was we need to go deeper. We need to go deeper than just symptoms. So people who are nutritionists and doctors and wellness practitioners, it's no good just trying to treat the symptom if the root cause of that is a dysregulated nervous system.

And I wonder if you'd like to speak to a little bit what actually is a dysregulated nervous system for people that aren't quite sure of that term.

Catherine Harand (34:06.702)
And of course, again, it's something that I wasn't familiar with, even up until sort of a year ago, even though my daughter, you know, trauma coach, you know, somatically trained. And I thought, you know, I'd hear the term, I'd see the posts, but I didn't understand it. I didn't know anxiety in a dysregulated nervous system was connected. So the way my perception of how I see it based on my own journey and all the research I've done, again, it's when that trip switch has been tripped and it could be.

the most, like you say, benign incident from childhood onwards, and many, many more of those benign incidents, not feeling seen and heard in my case, emotional neglect, numerous, you've touched on them earlier, a lot of benign incidents. And what it's saying, basically, you're not safe. I've gone through life not feeling safe a lot of the time. There's times I've felt really safe and really strong.

But a lot of the time I felt like a child. I feel like I was stuck at six or seven. But I didn't realize until this year. So again, when an incident happened, maybe a bigger incident that's really frightened me, that froze my nervous system at that stage and it's dysregulated me. So it's like, again, it's like a trip switch. And that trip switch, the good news is it can be reversed. We can.

do brain retraining, we can soothe the nervous system, but it takes time. And what I would say to anyone, what's helped me on my journey and it's been lengthy this last couple of years particularly is the belief and the hope. You know, I didn't have the full knowledge then of how do you do this stuff? You know, we talk about healing journey and I know that can sound quite spiritual and I had no idea what a healing journey was, but again,

It's all to do with a lot of cogs to the wheel and just keeping that hope and belief that you can recover. You're not broken by the way, you're not broken. You don't need fixing because that's a term that I think is misunderstood. We're not broken just because other people seem to really get on with life and they've got the high flying job and they can travel anywhere and they don't experience anxiety, et cetera. And you say, what's wrong with me? Why can't I do that?

Catherine Harand (36:26.83)
That's because you don't have self -compassion. You've got a dysregulated nervous system. And plus, do you really want to do those things? Or is it society saying, that's what we should be doing. We should be traveling the world. We should be socializing loads. What do you really want to, what's your authentic self want? And that's what a dysregulated nervous system is. It's about you're imbalanced internally at the root cause because of.

Sally (36:34.087)
Yeah.

Sally (36:54.119)
Yeah.

Catherine Harand (36:54.894)
situations and experiences happened over your childhood and beyond. But what do you want your life to look like? Why is the pressure, is there external pressure to look a certain way, to be a certain way? So do you agree with that?

Sally (37:08.487)
Yeah.

Yeah, I do. Disregulation for me feels like this kind of roller coaster of emotions and can often, you know, you're not operating from just a sense of calm and peace and groundedness. So regulation for me feels like calm, inner peace, groundedness. I know I've got the resources to cope. If something does happen or I need to take action on something, I can take action on it and then feel regulated again. And there might be...

points where I feel a bit exhausted and I know I need to rest, but I'm not, it's not those massive peaks and troughs like it used to be. And actually I had a bit of an episode yesterday. I'll just, this is a bit of dysregulation and, and you know, just because I'm a therapist and a coach, it doesn't mean I don't get dysregulated anymore. And it's, it's about self -knowledge. It's about knowing yourself. So

I've been sleeping really, really well recently and that gives me a lot of energy and it means I have a lot of energy to spend during the day. It's like a bank, isn't it? You build up your energy through sleep and through connection and community and all of that. So yesterday morning I wake up and I go to the gym, if anyone saw my Instagram stories on Sunday, the 7th of July, I went to the gym and I've been training with a personal trainer doing PBs. And this was the first time I was in the gym on my own doing PBs.

And I had so much energy and I really pushed myself. I really pushed myself. And I felt absolutely amazing. I was just like, my God, I feel so powerful, so strong. And I was like, right, I need to harness this energy. And I didn't. I thought I was harnessing it, but I didn't. So I basically spent all my energy and I went out for lunch with my mum and dad and I drove there and it was an hour and away.

Sally (39:00.615)
Then I was like, right, come on, let's go around Brighton. And we went around Brighton. Then all of a sudden I'm like, babe, I don't feel very well. I need to go home. So we went home and laid on the sofa. I couldn't tolerate TV. I was ravenous. I was ravenously hungry because I hadn't eaten enough. So I was dysregulated. So I was just like eating carbs and crisps and things I wouldn't normally eat.

And I just felt, I felt, then the emotions started to come up. I felt really emotional. I felt fear in my body. And I was like, okay, why has this happened? Because I didn't calibrate the amount of energy that I had very well. I spent, I had all this energy and I decided I was going to go and spend it all. It's like putting your own oxygen mask on first might look like.

saving some of that energy for you so that you have some to give so that you're not necessarily like this balloon going off. So even though I have bucket loads of self -knowledge, I still get it wrong. So for me, like you mentioned the word healing journey, right? This journey never, ever, ever, ever stops. I don't care what anyone says.

I don't care what I've said in the past and I'm sure I've contradicted myself and I'm sure I've said you can have whatever you want and you can have it all and all of this and be perfection. You can't. But in knowing that, in knowing that it's a journey, that's actually the freedom. That's the relief. That's where we can come back to inner wholeness and inner peace and inner calm and find that inner balance is

knowing that it is a journey, we never get it done. It's just that we end up creating these tools that we can use. And those tools always begin with self -awareness and there are always blind spots, like that blind spot that I had yesterday. So talking about tools, one last thing I wanted to mention, we will go to the tools in a second. Something that you spoke about, and I've seen this a lot before,

Sally (41:22.343)
is that this idea of strength, and I'm sure I did this yesterday, this idea of being it all, having it all, doing it all, and seeming like you've got it all together can actually be a coping strategy. That can actually be a trauma response, yeah, based on I need to be strong. I need to be strong. Like I have that within myself because I'm an only child. I don't have aunts and uncles in the UK. I don't have children. So it's just me.

Catherine Harand (41:36.494)
agree with.

Sally (41:51.943)
So I do need to be strong and that's probably why I train in the gym as hard as I do to be strong. So I have that strength for my life, which is a good thing. It's a good thing, right? But it's also has a negative side when you overdo it. So it's really, really important. I think when we're going about our lives, when we're seeing all those strong people on LinkedIn and Instagram, whatever, just to sort of have your eye on them and think, hmm.

is that just a coping strategy? And you can even do it with me when you see me on Insta stories. I'm calling myself out here big time. It's like, she's acting on that coping strategy again. And of course we need coping strategies. Like we do need them. But like I say, they've got to be in balance.

Catherine Harand (42:43.47)
And what I would say, Sally, what's got me through, there's a very wonderful, kind lady who's very knowledgeable. And I knew her from PR and she's now more in this space. And a couple of months ago, you know, I've been reaching out because I knew she was further on her journey than me. And I'm like, what's going on? And I'd send her funny, you know, the funny memes of like the roller coaster journey, like, I think I've made it. And then, whoosh, we're down another, you know? And what she said to me, and this is really,

found she said the lows aren't as low and they don't last as long and that's the good thing. So whilst the healing journey never stops I think that's a really profound thing to consider because if you thought when you're going through the midst of it which I feel I have the last sort of couple of years you're like literally in a game of whack -a -mole bounce from pill to post not knowing where the next thing's gonna you know come from and what symptoms, sensation, anxiety.

It's horrendous, I have to say it's been horrific, but I'm very fortunate that just recently something has shifted. And all I can say is I feel it's all of the work that I've done over the last couple of years, or particularly on the nervous system side just the last year, has now kind of fallen into place because I've had sort of relatives who've said even last year I've eaten well, given up drink, do grounding, all the stuff that I talk about. And they'll go, well, something's not working.

And of course I didn't know the stuff that I even know now. And I think, yeah, it's not. So am I going to be like this forever? But no, like I say, it's about building yourself back up brick by brick with the knowledge, understanding, hope and belief. And I'm, you know, here I am. And I'm not going to say that every day from now on is going to be rainbows and unicorns because we're human. Like you've just said, we're human. We're human first and foremost, even with all the knowledge that we're accumulating when we're human.

And we're much better at helping other people, aren't we, than ourselves? You know, it's much easier. And again, when you've got that energy like you had yesterday, and I've had that energy too, you go, I can do this and I'll do the other. And then our bodies go, I'll just remind you, you know, that we've only got so much energy in the bucket. So be mindful and be very kind to yourself. But I do like that phrase of the lows aren't so low and they don't last so long.

Sally (44:43.079)
Yeah.

Sally (45:09.735)
Yeah, I love that. Thank you for reminding me and our guests that there is light at the end of the tunnel. And even though we are on a healing journey forever, the lows don't go so low. And it's not a bigger roller coaster, basically, that we're on. Yeah.

Catherine Harand (45:26.766)
Thanks.

Sally (45:28.679)
So let's talk about tools and things that help us regulate our nervous system. I would love to turn it around, get positive and talk about some of these tools. So I've got some that are my favorites and education is one of them. You know, understanding and learning about the nervous system has definitely helped me to feel less fearful about the body sensations, about, you know, what's coming like yesterday, that feeling of burnout and fear.

that arose, I was like, okay, I know what this is. It's fine. I just need to rest. I just need to sleep. And when I move around, I just need to give myself a little bit of space and time, make sure I'm hydrated. You know, that's a big one. Electrolytes, because electrolytes contain the vehicle for electricity to move through our body. And if we want energy, we need to have electricity. So electrolytes are great. So yeah, Catherine, tell us what are some of your favorite tools for regulation?

Catherine Harand (46:26.894)
Yes, so again, I implemented a lot of this stuff again, just from learning from sort of last year and you read all these posts on Instagram and of course you don't step out barefoot into the garden for one or two days and expect to be healed, you know, and that's the misunderstanding of a lot of these tools in your toolbox. So what I would say is find what works for you. One size doesn't fit all. So what I have found is walking in nature. I find that incredibly healing bird song.

Things that a few years ago, if someone had talked about walking in nature and birdsong, I'd have thought, I'd rather be in the pub. But this has come with the growth of me and getting back to my authentic self. So daily, I will walk out and I'm very fortunate to live in County Durham and beautiful countryside. Literally the back of my house, I've got some lovely walks. I can very rarely see deer, but it's wonderful when I do. But just getting out, listening to birdsong, it could be 20 minutes. It doesn't have to be a hike up a mountain. So get into...

into nature, into fresh air, into daylight. Grounding, you know, going out barefoot on the grass, doing some stretches. Literally, I will do that for maybe two minutes on a morning. It's hard in winter, Sally, of course, but again, I'm fortunate. I know I'm lucky to have a little garden that I can just step out barefoot. But again, it's the energy from the ground and it comes up. I do some stretching. It shifts energy, and I've learned this from somatic work.

doing somatic stretches and exercises. Again, it's a case of finding the exercise and the movement that works for you. I tend to bend my knees and sort of like, I do this, you know, a few times and my body likes that movement. It doesn't matter where I am, if I'm on holiday, I literally just, you know, do it with a little bit of a shake out. Guided meditations, I've listened to those now for probably coming up to a year.

And the mindful movement is my go -to, but obviously again, find the one, the voice, the tone, the words that work for you. There's morning meditations to get you upbeat, get you positive, positive mindset. Words have power. And this is something I've learned because when you're living in fight or flight and survival, the fearful chatter, that monkey brain of you're never going to get well, you're never going to X, Y, O, Z, it's...

Catherine Harand (48:55.822)
awful and your brain believes what it thinks. But we don't have to tune into every thought. And it's a power and it's a practice to learn to let those negative thoughts go. Like a cloud, you know, drifting past. You don't have to zoom in and believe it. But again, that's a work in practice. I'm still implementing a lot and practicing a lot. I eat nutrient dense diet. I'm aware of blood sugars. So again, I mean, yesterday I had a macadam, you know, I'm human.

And it was delicious. But I'd eaten first, I'd had, you know, a lovely, you know, roast dinner with vegetables. So again, if you're going to have a sweet treat, have it after your protein. And then, you know, your blood sugars remain sort of a bit more level. But remember our bodies are made to withstand blood sugar spikes. I'm not saying have a magnum morning, noon and night every day of the week. But you know what I'm saying? It's like our bodies are made to withstand a lot of these things. Don't be fearful. I think one where

Sally (49:46.023)
Yeah.

Catherine Harand (49:55.854)
when we're driven by fear and a desperation to heal. One of the tools, and it's not a tool actually, let me rephrase that. One of the things that I've learned in the last four months is the mind -body practice and it's called TMS. And it was founded by Dr. John Sarno. And I came across a guy called Dan Buglio who is a coach in America. I was signposted again on my journey and comments and...

And finding him has been a game changer. Now, again, I didn't sort of, you know, recover overnight, but as soon as I watched a couple of his YouTube videos, et cetera, something in me shifted. So again, tools, find what resonates with you. What makes your nervous system feel seen and heard? I've done inner child work. I've listened to a couple of guided, just even a couple of guided meditations, journaling, and I've had profound outpouring on inner child work. I've cried.

and you visualize in that little girl of six or seven and holding her in it. I can talk about now and not be emotional and that's a sign of healing. You know, I'm not even trying to hold it in because I'm on your podcast. It's literally, I'm talking from a place of healing now. It's not because we won't ever get triggered again. You know, I've lost both parents. I'm sure there'll be times that a song will play or whatever, but find the tools that work for you from guided meditations to grounding to walks in nature, breath work.

incredible breath work is profound, you know, just, you know, taking that breath in, holding even just for a couple of seconds and let it slowly out through your mouth. Do that, you know, five, six, seven times and you will go into the parasympathetic state. That's a scientific fact. It's not woo -woo stuff. There's so many tools that we can all accumulate and put in our toolbox. And again, you know, at the beginning, it seems daunting, doesn't it? Because you go,

I just want to live my life. I don't have to want to implement all of this stuff. This is hard work. I just want to live without thinking. But honestly, trust me, once you start implementing, it's like brushing your teeth. It's like, you know, you're looking at maybe half an hour a day, you know, finding what works for you. So that's my advice.

Sally (52:17.575)
Yeah. I love that. I love that. Yeah. I think as you've been speaking and as you've been talking about all of these tools, it's really highlighted something for me that it's all internal, really. I mean, there are external tools that we need like hydration and air and oxygen and nutrition and all of that. But when it comes to mindset and changing that fear response and calming the monkey mind,

and all of that, it's very much about the inner landscape that we have in our mind. Do we have a war zone going on? Or do we have this nice kind of peaceful landscape that we can really tune into? Because the words and pictures that you have in your mind really do affect your nervous system. You know, if you think about something quite provoking, you're going to have a sympathetic nervous system response to that.

But if you think about like laying on a beach in Barbados and just having a really nice time and there's peace and there's calm, that will translate to your nervous system. So it's almost like, you know, the mind is sending the signals and that gets translated into the nervous system. So yeah, I think ultimately if we are dysregulated, we're looking at breaking the dysregulation by breaking the cycle.

And you can do that via a top -down approach or a bottom -up approach. And the bottom -up approach is altering the body to change the mind. So that might be getting up, it might be having a stretch, it might be taking a deep breath, it might be sniffing aromatherapy oils, it might be tapping, or we can go top -down where we're using our cognition, we're using our pictures, words, maybe our imagination to affect the nervous system.

I don't think either is right or wrong. I think they both need to be used in collaboration with each other for different people at different times. So yeah, I just think this, that this instrument that we've been given, the body is so beautiful, so powerful, and we really haven't scratched the surface. And in a way, I think that all of this anxiety that we are experiencing in the world right now, for whatever reason, maybe it's to do with technology.

Sally (54:39.943)
I think it's happening for a reason. And I think that reason is to really show us how amazing we are, the resources that we do have. So that, you know, there is that. I think also things do need to change outside of us, outside of ourselves. And I think, you know, systems and processes need to change to become more trauma informed and menopause informed so that we can start. So that it's a lot easier to prioritize ourselves, especially in the work.

place and that wellness is being considered. And I know that's something that you're really passionate about. And I'm guessing now the next step for you, because you work in that corporate sector, is to not only educate people about menopause, but also about trauma. So what are next steps for you, Catherine, in terms of your work?

Catherine Harand (55:30.382)
That's a good question because again, what I've even learned this year, like I say, I've got an ebook that I sent out to every attendee of workshops or clients that I work with. And I've included a small piece on trauma. You know, I don't class myself as a trauma coach. I'm not trained in it. This is just from my vast experience and understanding. So I do know a lot about it. And I think sometimes your first -hand experience, you know, that's invaluable.

to someone that's, you know, what you respect to psychologists and psychotherapists, they, you know, do great stuff in this for you, they really do. But, you know, if they haven't experienced it themselves, you know, where mine is from first hand, and I know how much it comes out in menopause. And this is what I want to get out there, but not in a scaremongering way, Sally. I want this to be in a reassuring of, a reassuring way of, look, you know, listen to the whispers before you get to menopause.

Sally (56:01.127)
Yeah.

Catherine Harand (56:29.326)
listen to those whispers and this is being proactive, this is taking the baton and going, do you know what, I'm going to address this. If I'd known in my thirties that anxiety was a sign of something deep rooted, I could have then addressed it, I could have found the right person then and I could have avoided a lot of what I've been through in the last three years and I just want any woman listening to this to be able to not completely avoid it because everyone's journey is so unique and different but you know, if they can alleviate it by even 50%.

to what I've been through, that would be, you know, my job is done kind of thing.

Sally (57:04.039)
Amazing. Thank you so much, Catherine, for sharing your stories, for your words of wisdom and for really opening up some thoughts and some emotional threads around trauma, which I'm sure people who are listening are going to find useful and perhaps might be thought -provoking for them to go off and do some of their own research. So we just don't know how we can affect people by having these really open conversations.

I think they're so important to have, so thank you so much. And Catherine, where are you most active on social media if people want to connect with you?

Catherine Harand (57:40.878)
Instagram, I do have Facebook and LinkedIn as well and Twitter, but Instagram is where I tend to, I'm an at menopausementor underscore. That's where I tend to post a lot more stuff, but, and obviously, you know, reach out, happy to answer any DMs. But thank you, Sally. Thank you for giving me the opportunity just to explain what I've been through with the hope in helping others.

Sally (58:04.391)
Yeah, I'm sure it will. Thank you so much, Catherine.

Cool. All right.